Unlocking Independence: Helping Your Twentysomething Navigate Life

Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Lianne Castelino. Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Lianne Castelino.

Our guest today is a developmental clinical psychologist, a speaker and an author. Meg J. Specializes in adult development with a particular focus on 20 somethings.

She is Associate professor of Human Development at the University of Virginia and a mother of two. She joins us today from Charlottesville, Virginia. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Hi Lianne. It's great to be here.

Really interesting subject matter because we've got a lot of parents thinking about their kids who are in their 20 somethings.

But let me ask you to start off our conversation, what generally are characteristics that parents need to know about when we're talking about anyone in their 20s?

I think the most important word to think about when you think about 20 somethings is the word uncertainty. That might not be characteristics of the 20something, but that summarizes their environment, their milieu.

That that's what makes the 20s so amazing but so difficult is that they're the uncertain years of life. And we can talk more about that.

But I think really remembering that, empathizing with that, tapping into all the uncertainty that your 20 something is waking up with every day would probably help most parents a lot.

So why is uncertainty something that needs to be kept top of mind then?

It's hard to imagine, I know, but that used to really be the way that it was. These days those milestones hover more around 30 than around 20, which means you have a good 10 year period of life.

And it's really usually the only decade of life where you wake up in the morning, you don't know where you'll live in five years, you don't know who you'll love in five years, you don't know where you'll work in five years, you don't know who your friends are, you don't know when you'll be able to pay your bills. So everything is uncertain at once.

Of course, there's always parts of life that are uncertain, but it's really the only time in our lives, hopefully where everything is uncertain at one time. And the brain really doesn't like that. And 20 somethings don't like it either.

At the same time, you believe it, that it is a defining decade when we're talking about the 20 something. So can you take us through and unpack what you mean by that?

Yeah.

So as you know, if these adult milestones are all sort of going to start happening, especially late 20s, early 30s, they're all about to happen or starting to happen in our 20s. So if you, I look at myself, I think, okay, well, I was married at 33, but I met my partner in my 20s.

I graduated from graduate school in my 30s, but I started in my 20s. That all the things that sort of came to fruition for me and for a lot of young adults these days in their 30s, they really all start in their 20s.

So you know, I work in the 20s because that's where all the action is.

That's when people, you know, are starting to think about where do I want to work, who do I want to be, where do I want to live, who do I want to love, how's my life going? Look. And so even though that may come to fruition in the 30s, those projects are all beginning in their 20s.

And it's amazing time to work with people because I get to get in front of all these defining moments.

You've been in this space for quite some time. As you sort of outline there.

What are some of the key trends that you're noticing with 20 somethings today that perhaps their parents did not experience? And at the same time, their parents are probably having challenges dealing with their 20 something child.

Well, I think it depends on what parents today, what their 20s were like. So for some parents today, so I have only recently become the parents of a 20 something, but my 20s were similar to the 20s today.

I was in graduate school, I didn't have a partner, I didn't own a home. I mean, you know, I really had sort of a modern 20 something life for my 20s.

That said, I have clients who say, well, my parents say, well, I had met your, you know, my partner at 23. We were all settled. We don't understand all this chaos that you're dealing with.

So I think it, some of it depends on what your experience of your twenties was like. So I think some people can maybe identify better than others with what's happening now.

One thing that definitely has changed in the last 10 or 15 years is obviously technology, which has, you know, has its pos pluses and minuses.

And so I think understanding the role that technology is playing in 20 something life both in terms of changing how the work experience is going to be obviously changing people's social lives, dating lives, etc. That's something that's new.

So what do you say to a 20 something that is in your office who is looking for support, who maybe has parents who had a completely different experience than them or you know, even the opposite, had a very similar experience, like what are you saying to them to reassure them about an uncertain decade in an uncertain world.

Right. So I do a lot of normalizing that. There's a famous bell hooks quote, education as an intervention.

And you know, I'm a clinical psychologist, but I would say I'm really more of a teacher than a therapist. That very few of my 20 something clients need therapy. They just often need better information.

So if I have a client who says, well I'm, I'm behind, everybody else is ahead, everybody else has it figured out. My parents had it figured out, what's wrong with me? I'm, you know, so I hear that a lot. And then I have to say like, well, did they?

Or you know, and they'll say yeah, my parents met each other at 23. And then we'll say okay, well let's talk about some national averages these days.

So average age of finding a partner and settling down is more like 28, 29 these days. Or they'll say, what's wrong with me? I don't own a home. Average age of first time home ownership in the United states is now 35.

So it's, there's, you're not off time for not having a home and a partner and you know, job stability. So I do a lot of norming around what are actually the averages today? And of course averages are just averages.

Some people are ahead, some people are behind the averages.

But it does help people at least anchor themselves in their own environment or their own decade rather than trying to compare themselves to something that happened three decades ago for some other people.

So I guess key to understanding for any parent about, you know, better understanding their 20 something is to have some kind of insight into what is happening physiologically and psychologically during that decade. Of the 20 somethings, could you take us through some of the high level, keep parts of that.

Yeah, so we talked about uncertainty, sort of established that as the air 20 somethings are breathing. So something to understand about that is that the brain interprets uncertainty as danger.

So it is very common for 20 somethings to feel very anxious and stressed about their reality because it feels Dangerous. It makes evolutionary sense to be worried about I don't know what's going to happen, I don't know if things are going to work out.

That does not mean there's something wrong with your 20 something. That does not mean, mean that person necessarily has a mental health disorder.

It just means that their brain does not like the uncertainty that they're dealing with. Another thing to understand about 20 somethings is that their brains skew negatively, more negatively than even older adults.

I mean all people skew negatively because again, it's just more adaptive to be ready to expect the worst rather than to assume everything will always be fine. But 20 something brains especially skew especially negatively. So if something uncertain happens, they imagine the worst.

They do a lot of what if ing and catastrophizing, worst case scenario thinking. And so a lot of my job is really to first help them understand that's what's happening.

This is just a normal reaction for a young adult brain to have and then help them shift from all the what ifs to what else of what else could I be saying about this situation? What else might come to pass than the worst?

That I'm thinking that this is truly like a reframing pivot that they just don't have a lot of experience with and they don't also don't have that life experience that as a 40 year old or a 50 year old, something bad happens, your brain does that, it, it what ifs.

But then you can quickly draw on situations where you go, oh, I've been here before and it worked out, or I've been here before and I found my way through. A 24 year old does not have that experience to draw on. They're not doing anything wrong, they just don't yet have those data points.

So then what would you say to a parent who might be guilty of catastrophizing and looking at the negatives?

You're not helping.

No, exactly. But it's such a hard thing today in the world we live in.

I mean, if you choose not to watch TV or follow any kind of media, you're probably ahead of the rest of us. But it's a challenge, right? So what do you say to a parent like that in order to empower them to help their 20 something?

Right. So I would say to role model the behavior they would like their 20 something to do.

So you know, if I have a client who the minute something goes wrong, they immediately get upset and panic and they text their parent about how upset they are and then the Parent emails me that they're really upset that their child is upset. That's a lot of panicking going on. Instead of the parent saying what I would say if they were in my office of well, hold on, slow down.

Okay, X, Y and Z happen. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the worst thing could come to pass. What else might happen?

What else could you do in this situation besides panic? So I talked to parents and 20 somethings a lot about rather than panicking, problem solving.

So what can you do about the situation rather than how can you sort of spin on panicking about it?

One of the things that you also are a proponent of is the belief that the 20s are a critical period for mental health and well being. Why do you believe that?

Well, they're definitely a particular period for mental health and well being.

So another thing parents can do to help their kids, speaking of sort of correcting misinformation, is please don't tell your 20 somethings that their 20s are going to be the best years of their life. Two reasons. One is empirically speaking that isn't true.

That for all the reasons you and I have just discussed, all that uncertainty, your 20s are going to be probably, hopefully the time of your life where you have the least money, you have the worst job, you're probably the most lonely, you're ever going to be the most uncertain, unstable. Everything's changing, friendships are shifting.

So not only does it not make sense that these would be the best years of their lives, all the data show that they're not. The other reason we don't want to tell 20 something seeds are going to be the best years of their lives is because that's depressing.

That what we want to sort of raise our kids to do is create lives that get better and better as they go. We don't want our kids to peak in their 20s and then think everything that follows is terrible.

So that's a big piece of misinformation that I think parents could help their kids with of saying just normalizing a lot of the struggles. Oh, you were asking about the mental health piece.

So combined with that is they are the years of your life where you're most likely to feel depressed, you're most likely to feel anxious, you're most likely to feel stressed and you're most likely to feel like you can't focus. So common, common, common.

And I, I really encourage 20 somethings and their parents not to panic about these experiences or even assume that, that your kid has a mental health disorder or needs a Diagn or medications. Some do, most don't.

So that's not the first place I go with a 20 something when I find out that they're having common normal struggles such as anxiety, depression, stress, lack of focus.

A lot of 20 somethings arrive into that decade increasingly today already feeling anxious before they're in their 20s, already feeling potentially depressed, whether it's clinically diagnosed or otherwise. So how do you differentiate, like how does a parent know the difference?

Well, the bad news is there's no litmus test, blood test, MRI for that.

The good news is I'm not sure the difference matters because it doesn't really matter whether you call something clinical depression or I'm feeling depressed.

It really, I mean that in a way much of the treatment is the same that whether you choose to take medication for a mental health concern, everybody needs sort of a skill based approach as well. So that's really where I start with all of my clients.

And I try not to get too hung up on whether this is a disorder or not a disorder, diagnosis, not a diagnosis. I try to find out what's going on and what do we know about what's helpful in this situation.

So if it's anxiety, I'm looking, looking at things that young adults can do to build the skills to help them when they're feeling anxious, whether that's diagnosable or not diagnosable. Anxiety, same thing with depression. The number one precursor for depression in young adults is a breakup.

So when someone is, you know, just coming out of a breakup, they can probably meet criteria for DSM depression. That doesn't mean they're a depressed person, it doesn't mean they're disordered, it doesn't mean they'll always be depressed.

It means they need help getting through this loss and this very sad experience. And so we work on those skills and I try not to get too concerned with what we do or don't call it.

One of the questions I wanted to ask you as well, I mean I think in understanding what's going on in the 20 somethings, it's also important to understand what some of the common misconceptions are among parents about kids in their 20 somethings. Can you take us through some of those.

You know my book the Defining Decade, probably the, the common misconception I'm trying to, to re educate about is that 30 is the new 20.

This sort of sense, I think a lot of times older people with their kids to make them feel better, they're like, oh, you've got all the Time in the world, it's all going to work out. Now I'm not saying I don't think people's lives are going to work out. I'm just saying that 20 somethings don't find that to be a useful response.

That if your 20 something is feeling worried or stressed about their life or their future, their career, their relationships, rather than saying like, ah, you got all the time in the world, you know, that I take their questions seriously, what are you worried about? What can we do about it? So again, it's that problem solving perspective.

And in a way, my other book, the 20 something treatment is, is the opposite end of that spectrum.

The other unhelpful end of the spectrum of I'm feeling worried or stressed or sad or whatever and people panicking and saying, oh no, this is supposed to be the best years of your life. There must be something wrong with you, you must have a mental health disorder. That's probably not the case either.

And so again, I'm looking at what's got you so worried, what's got you so stressed? What is the problem that you're dealing with? What's the situation and how do we problem solve it?

So again, with clients and with parents, I'm usually thinking about how do we role model and teach problem solving versus panicking or worrying about pathologizing.

Let's dive a little bit more deeper into your latest book, the 20 something treatment. What would you say was the impetus, the catalyst for you to write this book?

I originally had a chapter in there about mental health, but this will tell you how things have changed. My editor, rightly at the time, was like nobody that just people aren't ready, people aren't. That's just not. Doesn't belong in a mainstream book.

And he was right. He said, I think that's another book. You'll write other books, save it.

And so, you know, about 10 years later or so now everybody's talking about mental health. People are watching tick tocks about it all day long. Some of the conversations are more useful than others.

So I thought now would be a good time to write that mental health book and just share what I've learned after, at this point, 25 years of working with young adult mental health.

In the course of writing the book, there's the science piece as well. In terms of the research, anything you uncovered in there that you think parents really need to understand?

I mean, I think I would say it's the piece that I'm talking about that rather than panicking or pathologizing really just to help their kids problem solve. And that problem solving may include, hey, let me help you find a therapist or hey, let's go talk to somebody about medication.

I'm not saying that those things are never warranted or useful or necessary. But those are only, those are two ways to look at some of the problems.

And some of the problems are, hey, let me help you figure out how to talk to your boss or hey, you know, maybe you want to work on, you know, making a better friend group or whatever the case may be.

Speaking of medication, certainly we live in a world of quick fixes, convenience, you know, pills for a lot of things that maybe we don't need. What is your general thought on how a lot of these issues that may arise or may get exacerbated in that 20 something decade of life?

How they're being managed using medic. Medic medication?

Yeah, I mean in general 20 somethings as a group are over diagnosed and over medicated. So and a lot of that diagnosis is self diagnosis from TikTok or Instagram or whatever the case may be.

But then they, people say oh no, I have xyz and then they go see their gym GP and say I have this and that and I want this or that pill or the GP suggests it and then suddenly they're on med. So I have a skills over pills approach. I mean partly that's because I'm a psychologist, so that is what I do. I don't prescribe medication.

That's what psychiatrists or GPs do. And again some, for some people, some medications are life saving, incredibly helpful. But most 20 somethings don't need medications.

Most 20 somethings are not disordered, they're just having a hard time in a very hard decade.

So I think the other important thing about that is that even if you, even if medication is warranted, if you have a disorder where almost certainly medication is going to play a role, such as bipolar disorder or ADHD or major depression, there is no mental health disorder that is pills, only that. It's always a skills plus pills approach. So my end of things, I'm the skills person.

So skills are always needed whether you do or don't choose to use medication. And you know, I'm not against it.

I just think people need to be informed consumers about the upsides, the downsides and not just about going on medication, but about like, hey, what's your exit plan for going off?

You also believe that the 20 somethings is a time for securing identity capital. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, so that is from the Defining Decade. And the defining decade is a book that's really about sort of.

Well, the subtitle is how to make why your twenties matter and how to make the most of them now. And so it's really about how to kind of get some traction, start building the life that you want in your 20s.

So I think a lot of young adults feel really overwhelmed by this, this question of who am I going to be, you know, identity wise or who am I going to be, quote, you know, when I grow up? And that's really an impossible question that most young adults will have nine different jobs between the ages of 18 and 35.

They're going to ultimately settle into work or a position or a niche that they'd never heard of when they were 22. And we were asking them this question. So I really try to shift that conversation away from the identity crisis. Who am I? Who am I going to be?

Which is a very overwhelming question.

Just to the identity capital model, which is, hey, your job as a 20 something is to go out there, invest in yourself, gain skills, experiences, knowledge that's going to, you know, add value to who you are, help you get the next best job or the next best situation. You have that for a year or two and you see what you've learned from that, what new identity capital you've gained.

Maybe you continue that for another year or two, maybe it's time to pivot.

But the identity capital model, it's very flexible that you're not asking a 20 something to sort of commit to something forever because they really don't like that, even if that is ultimately what ends up happening. But it's just really better not to start off like that.

You're just saying, go out there and earn some identity capital and check in with yourself or with me a year from now and see what, what, see what you've got and to, to think of it that way.

And that, you know, the great thing about that model too, besides it being flexible in a way, it's very secure in that you're creating, you know, skills and personal assets that no one can ever take away from you.

So it doesn't really matter if you work here or there or change your job or work from home or take a break that you're really, you know, those skills are inside of you rather than been attached somewhere else.

So along those lines, then, what do you suggest a parent's optimal approach should be if they're going to support their child in their 20s, secure that identity capital.

My suggestion for parents with kids in their 20s, no matter what the question is you're asking me is think more coach, less concierge that, that 20 somethings. And I mean this with no judgment, but they know less than you think they do. And that's normal because this is like all new.

Whether it's like, what do I do about a flat tire to how do I email my boss, or how do I have an interview, or, you know, how do I tell a friend that they've upset me. These are new experiences for young adults.

There's nothing wrong with 20 somethings that they don't know how to do this, but if we're taking care of that for them, you know, instead of helping them learn it and do it themselves, then we're being a concierge rather than a coach that we're not allowing them to sort of build not just identity capital, but just that sort of inner certainty that helps people get through the uncertainty of the 20s, that, you know, one of the antidotes to feeling uncertain in your 20s is to feel more sure of yourself, to have the confidence and the competence of like, hey, I can handle what comes up. And you don't gain that if your parents keep handling it for you.

So I guess that begs the question, like, what should be happening proactively before somebody's in their 20s to help them pave the way to sort of adopt the mindset that you're talking about.

Yeah, I mean, it's.

I, you know, I don't know how far back you want to go on all this, but I will tell you, both of my teenagers knew how to cook before they left the house. Because then I knew like, well, I have who's going to teach them now? So.

So I was definitely thinking, I mean, as they were growing up, to some extent, you know, what can I make sure they know how to do? Because then when they go to college, I'm no longer available to show them.

So whether that was cooking or calling to make their own haircut appointment, I mean, these things might sound silly, but these are exactly the kind of things that parents roll their eyes about kids not knowing how to do at 24. It's like, well, I don't know where they would have learned how to do it if someone else had been taking, taking care of it for them.

So you know, it's never too early to start helping your kids feel confident and competent. And so I think just again it's that coach over concierge model.

If there's something they're asking you to do or how to do, then this is your opportunity to be a coach and just to show them and hand that off to them after that.

In addition to skills over pills and securing identity capital capital, you're also a proponent of 20 somethings widening their friend network. Can you take us through what you mean by weak ties?

Yeah, so that's, that's from the defining decade.

It's you know, one of my sort of most important pieces of advice for young adults is that you know, getting through your, your twenties are difficult so you're going to lean on friends and family a lot. Strong, you know, you're your kind of strong ties, your best friends.

But you know, your strong ties may be your most supportive figures but they're not the most transformational. Your most transformational figures are weak ties.

So those are people that we used to know and lost touch with or the friend to friend to friend or mom or dad's neighbor's old boss. They're the people that you know, might have the job we're looking for, might work at the company we're interested in breaking into.

They know about the new apartment or the new idea, their new person, person today. So a big game changer for young adults is learning how to reach out to those people, how to tap into what's called the strength of Weak Ties.

That's the name of the, of the kind of famous paper where this research came from. That's not mine, it's Mark Granovators.

But helping young adults tap into the strength of weak ties and realizing like that's actually where new things come from. This is how the world works. You know, sometimes they hear that and they think, oh no, you're talking about networking and nepotism.

And I'm actually not talking, talking about that because again these are people that they may never have met. They're not doing them any special favors.

It's really more like crowdsourcing of hey, I'm looking for a new job and I'm going to reach out to anybody who might have some information, a way in a new perspective that could help me with this problem. I'm taking my problem to the crowd.

You know, when I listen to you describing it it sounds so reasonable. But when you're in the house with those 20 somethings and you're trying to.

Deal with yeah, believe me, I, I do. I. Believe me. It. I, I have a college freshman and a high school senior. They don't listen to a word that I say, but everyone else's kids listen to me.

So at least there's. That. I totally understand.

And there's something about hearing it from someone who's not mom and dad for some kids where suddenly it's just amazing and brilliant. And I wish all the. The moms and dads out there could hear the number of times in.

In session where I'll say something and somebody will go, yeah, my mom said that. Or they'll say, you know what? I've realized my dad was right. So it's. Keep doing it. Keep doing your job. As you know, it should be done.

I, I have those conversations with clients where they don't really want to hear what I'm saying, but I still tell them the best of what I know. But sometimes they'll just hear it from a professor or an aunt or an uncle or a friend.

It's just a normal part of, you know, whenever I start to get frustrated with my kids about this, I remember this is a normal part of separation and independence, and I want them to be independent. I would rather them not listen to what I say, then call me every five minutes for how do I tie my shoe? And should I take another breath?

So I remind myself of that in the moment. So I'm feeling frustrated.

Well, and the reason I asked the question really is because of, you know, your contention that we should be moving from concierge to coach. Right. And it sounds really reasonable and, and, and it makes a lot of rational sense, but the actual execution of it.

What do you suggest parents should consider in trying to make that transition?

Well, I don't think if your parents, if your kids don't want your coaching, they probably don't want your concierge either. So, so it's, it's really. I'm more concerned about the kids who are like, all for the concierge, that then it's on you to be like, no, I.

We need to shift to coaching. You know, I think for kids who. They don't want your coaching, they don't want your concierge.

I think you have to pick your battles, pick your timing, and realize that it is absolutely okay for them to learn some of their lessons the hard way and not ahead of time and not proactively and from somebody else. That that's all a part of life and that, you know, we don't need to. To panic over that.

I tell, you know, I do an orientation talk at uva and I tell parents, like, this is not going to go perfectly. There are a million things you could have headed off at the past that you're not going to be able to. But that's how people learn.

That's how the brain learns, that, you know, it's, it's okay. We don't need to panic about that.

Dr. J. What would you like readers of the 20 something treatment, especially parents, to leave.

With the very hopeful message, including 20 somethings themselves? Who, who read with it, who read it, is that life gets better every decade of adulthood. This is not just me saying this. All the data show that.

And, and I, I hope your listeners are out there thinking that's absolutely true, that despite 20 somethings hearing their 20s are the best years, life gets better. 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. The same is going to be true for your kids. They may struggle in college or their 20s. That's how they learn.

That means they're growing, they're learning, they're expanding their horizons, but that things are probably going to get better for them. And I mean, that's why I work in the space that I do. It's a very hopeful job.

I hear from old clients and students all the time with their save the dates and their baby announcements and their new jobs and they come through town and so this is all coming your way too.

That is a wonderful, hopeful message, certainly to end on. Dr. Meg J, clinical psychologist and author of the 20 Something Treatment A Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age.

Thank you so much for your time and your insight today.

Thank you, Leanne. My pleasure.

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