Parenting with Purpose in Troubling Times with Melinda Wenner Moyer

Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Lianne Castelino.

How can we raise kids who thrive in a world marred by climate change, online misinformation, violence and political chaos? Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Lianne Castelino.

Our guest today is an award winning journalist and contributing editor at Scientific American magazine. Melinda Wenner Moyer is also an author and a mom of two. Her latest book is called hello Cruel World.

Science Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times. Melinda joins us today from Cold Springs, New York. Thank you so much for making the time.

Hi Lianne. Thank you so much for having me again.

Great to see you again. And when we last spoke, you had just finished your first book called how to Raise Kids who Aren't Assholes.

Your second book, a little less stark in the title, but certainly very important. Hello Cruel World. Does it represent a natural progression for you or something else?

Yeah, for me it was really a natural progression of what I was thinking about and worrying about myself as a parent. You know, the first book is really like how to Raise Good Human Beings. And that feels very, very important to me.

But as time went on and with the pandemic and everything, I started thinking about a few other things. One was mental health. Like, what can we do to nurture our kids?

Mental health especially, I mean, there's know, so many worrying statistics about, about teen mental health and young adult mental health, but especially, you know, in the context of going through the pandemic and, and with all the rapid change and, and, you know, things that are going on in the world now, I really wondered, like, what can parents do to, to raise kids who can cope well with everything that's happening?

And I also, I, I did a podcast interview in which somebody said to me, okay, well, it's great to raise kids who aren't assholes, but how do you raise kids who can deal with a world full of assholes, which, as well, but, but you know, I, I did also wonder, okay, you know, how can we raise kids who can, who can have the skills to, to manage whatever life throws at them, including challenging, you know, situations and challenging people.

So really an interesting question you were asked in that podcast episode for sure.

And you know, when you talk about thinking about this, you, you also write about lying around, wake at night, you know, with insomnia Worrying about what kind of world that, you know, we're leaving for our kids. What our kids. What pushed you then to turn that anxiety into action and into this book?

Well, this is something I do a lot, which is when I feel a lot of anxiety, I immediately turn to science, and I think, could there be answers in the science that could help us? Just help us along and give us solutions, give us a toolbox. And so I just naturally started digging into the research and just to see what was.

What was there, and was there going to be information there that could make me feel better and maybe help other parents, too? And I.

I found very quickly that there was a lot of really interesting research on all different skills that researchers think are really imperative for kids now. A lot of interesting research on, you know, what parents and caregivers and teachers can do to help nurture these. These skills in kids.

And so when I found there was all this research, I said, oh, I really want to share this with the world, and I wanna share this with other parents. And so that's what led me to write the book.

And so how did you go about sort of paring that down, Melinda? Because there's obviously an ocean of research on this topic and certainly parenting in general. How did you go about distilling it?

Well, you know, when I look through research, there's obviously so many details, so many nuances, and I really try to look for themes and scientific consensus as well.

So, you know, one study that suggests something kind of bizarre, I might not put a lot of, you know, pay a lot of attention to, I guess, or necessarily trust.

But if I'm seeing a handful of studies or a number of studies suggesting the same thing, and there are themes and ideas we can pull out of them that can be broadly applicable to parents, those are the types of things that I'm going to focus on. And thankfully, there are.

And I found even when I was looking at different skills, I would find the same types of parenting strategies could be helpful for multiple skills, which I found very reassuring because I think sometimes we're given so much information as parents, and it can be hard to sift through and know what to pay attention to. And what I was finding were these really sort of broad stroke themes that can help build multiple skills in kids. And so that was really nice.

So let's go through some of them that's in your book in terms of some of the key traits, and you pare it down to three that kids need to navigate in this. This flawed world that we live in. Can you take us through them.

Yes. So yes, my book has 10 chapters so like 10 different kinds of skills. And I, I grouped them into three big categories.

The first one is coping mechanisms. So the first section of my book is called Cope.

And so this, this is all about what can we do as parents to help our kids develop the kinds of coping skills that they will need to manage all of the different things that life throws at them. And we know coping skills are just e for mental health.

And so this is really about, you know, what are the kinds of coping skills that we can help build and, and how can we help nurture them. The second part of my book is called Connect and it's really focused on connection techniques. So we know connection is so important.

Relationships are so important for us, for our well being throughout our lives.

And we also know, I don't a lot of people talk about, you know, the crisis of connection in boys and there's, I would argue, something similar, a little different in girls that happens and wanted to dig into, you know, what are the issues that make connection difficult for kids and what can we do as parents to help kids develop the kinds of skills that will help them form, you know, really good relationships throughout their lives. And then the last part of the book is cultivation practices.

And I think of this part of the book as like other life skills that are really essential and you know, helping kids develop the skills they need to deal with various tools that they encounter in the world, like money and like technology.

And so it's what can we do to build skills in our kids that will help them manage these kinds of tools and also use them in ways that can actually make the world a better place.

Anything in the science as it relates to those three buckets that really caught your eye struck you?

Yeah, I mean there's a lot, there's a lot. But you know, I think one of the big themes of my book is really being curious and listening to our kids is incredibly powerful.

And when we do this, you know, when we, we are open to our kids feelings even when they're not pleasant feelings and when we have conversations with kids about what they're experiencing, it helps to really build all of these things. I mean coping skills really rely on parents being willing to listen to what their kids are feeling and having to say about their experiences.

And that's, you know, it's a big part of it and helping them understand what they're experiencing and build emotional literacy. There are also, you know, it's really important to listen to kids and be curious about them, to build connection with them as parents.

And this kind of, you know, openly curious engagement with kids can give them also self confidence and encourage them to be more curious with other people that you know, their, their peers, their friends in ways that can build stronger connections.

And then, you know, having open conversations and really listening to our kids experiences with technology is hugely important because you know, if we just sort of set rules or guidelines or, or structures for our kids without having open conversations and really listening to our kids and their experiences and, and, and their needs, then our kids are not really often willing to listen to us and respect those rules and respect our structures. So it's really got to be sort of a give and take and parents really do better or kids do better and parents as well.

When we really take a minute to respect what our kids have to say, to really, to really, you know, elicit their opinions, their thoughts, their experiences.

When we talk about the adolescent phase of development.

And I'm picking on that just because you know, many parents with kids in that age group probably worry more than other age groups because their kids are emerging adults, you know, the independence piece, et cetera, et cetera. You know, what can you say to those parents in terms of how to help their adolescent child build coping strategies in today's world?

Yeah, so I mean the, the first thing which I already mentioned is, is being open to your kids feelings, being willing to just sort of understanding they're going to have big feelings and that's normal. And it's normal as long as their feelings are sort of appropriate for whatever circumstances they're, they're going through.

And I think also another really big part of building coping skills and it's a little bit paradoxical, but you know, we were so worried about our kids mental health and for good reason. And I think when we worry a lot about our kids well being and mental health, we sometimes want to protect them from difficult experiences.

We don't want them to fail, we don't want them to get frustrated. We don't want them to experience challenges that are difficult because we think oh, that's going to be bad for their mental health.

But what the research really suggests is kind of the opposite, which is that kids really need experiences that are difficult. The reason for that is because this is how they learn over time and through practice the coping skills that will work best for them.

So if they go through something difficult and yet you're there, you're there to support them as they're going through something difficult, they're going to learn what those feelings feel like.

They're going to figure out how to sit with them, and they're going to, over time, try different coping skills and figure out what actually makes themselves feel better when they're feeling whatever it is, frustrated, sad.

And it is really through practicing coping skills in difficult moments that kids over time figure out what works for them and figure out, you know, what they, you know, all of. All of the coping skills that they will need throughout their lives to help them deal with the difficult things the world throws at them.

So it's kind of. It is sometimes a little surprising, but it's good when we don't rescue our kids. It's good when they make mistakes.

I mean, it's also just the experience of making a mistake and the kids learning that, oh, the world didn't end, you know, it's okay, I got through this and maybe I learned something from it, too. And it's helping kids recognize that these moments of difficulty can be growth opportunities too. And this is, you know, this is how.

This is how we learn and this is how we get better at things, is by making mistakes. So that's a big theme in my section on cope is. Is, you know, letting.

Giving kids independence, letting them fail, letting them experience challenges in a safe environment.

You talk about the global epidemic of youth mental health. There's also, according to experts, a global epidemic of social isolation and loneliness when it comes to youth as well.

What does that look like in terms of real connection when we're talking about adolescents and young adults? And how would you say that parents can go about fostering that?

Yeah, so when I looked into the issues that hamper connection in teens, I found that there were different themes. Often that depended on gender. And obviously there are exceptions to this.

But we hear about the crisis of connection in boys, and what this really is all about is boys are socialized from a very young age to act a certain way that, you know, masculinity looks a certain way in our culture. And it involves a sort of, you know, an unwillingness to be vulnerable and to be affectionate. You know, boys think, I can't. I can't show my feelings.

I can't especially fear sadness. You know, there's more like, quote, unquote, feminine emotions. And they. They feel like, you know, they can't be affectionate with their friends.

They can't be vulnerable and really open with their friends. And so this is not good.

And we know that, that when boys feel that they can't do these things, they suffer, especially later in Life and in young adulthood because they're lonely. I mean, they really, they don't have deep connections. So what we can do as parents for them is, I mean, we can be affectionate with our boys.

We can talk about feelings with our boys, especially dads, if their dad's listening. You know, be vulnerable with your boys and talk about feelings and, and hug them and hold them just like you would a daughter.

And also, you know, I think it really helps to open up about your own experiences building connection with others and maybe some of the things you've struggled with, you know, why, how has it been hard?

But how have you sort of figured out ways to overcome that and helping boys feel like, okay, it's, you know, a lot of the experts I talked to said if you can sort of build an environment in which it's safe for your son to be vulnerable, whether it's with you or with their friends, that will open up so much because a lot of times they don't do it because they don't feel like it's safe. They feel like they're going to be ostracized for it because it's going against these sort of masculine ideals.

But if you can make them recognize it's okay, you, you know, it's safe for you to do that with me, maybe they make a friend where they realize it's safe for them to do that with their friend. That is incredibly helpful for girls. Sorry, that was long, but there's a lot there.

Girls, there is a kind of crisis of connection that the research suggests exists.

But it' and it's really, when girls enter their teenage years, they often disconnect from themselves and they, they sacrifice their own needs and wants for their relationships for other people. And, and they're also socialized not to express anger and to, and to not be direct in the way they communicate about their, their, you know, anger.

And so this can lead to a lot of things.

It can, it can lead to a sort of sense of disconnect from yourself, like getting to adulthood and not really knowing what you like, what you want because you're always pandering to others.

And it can also look like not knowing how to engage with other people when you're feeling angry and not knowing how to communicate it and, and instead sort of doing it in passive aggressive ways or, you know, I've heard people say, you know, anger kind of comes out sideways with girls and women sometimes.

So as parents, we can encourage our daughters to really look, you know, throughout their teen and young adult years to really listen to their own needs and wants and speak up for themselves.

I do that with my daughter a lot and help her, you know, speak up for herself, especially around her brother and to, you know, to communicate that their anger is welcome, it's okay. You know, anger is a very important emotion. It tells us when we're wronged.

You know, it's very, very crucial for taking care of ourselves and to express that anger in a way where you're, you're speaking up for yourself, but in a way that's not hurting others, not stepping all over other people. So those are some of the key strategies.

So, so interesting.

And you know, when I think about and listen to you sort of describe that it's only as good as the parent in question and how willing they are to be self aware about whatever their baggage is and how much they want to learn and be maybe different in how they raise their kids.

So when we talk about that in terms of different generations, like, did you come across anything with how parents can empower themselves to maybe write a different story in terms of how their kids are raised compared to how they were raised based on where we are in the world today?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, something that helps me a lot when I kind of don't know what direction to go in.

And I want to do what's really best for my kids over the long term is I try to step back and take myself out of the moment that I'm in right now and think, okay, what could I do in this situation that is going to help my child develop a skill or learn or learn something that is going to help them throughout their lives? Because really what we want to be doing is we want to be raising kids to be adults who can function in this world.

And so, you know, you might think, oh, my kid is upset and I. And I want to rescue them. I want to take this pain away. I want to fix the problem for them.

And in the moment that's, you know, that's what you're feeling because you feel your kids pain. And believe me, I cannot, I do not like it when my kids are upset. I want it to go away. I want them to be happy.

But then I think, okay, but wait a minute, this might be a moment in which they could really learn something or practice a coping skill that would actually be helpful for them that they'll carry with them their whole lives. And so it's really like thinking of the big picture rather than just the moment you're in.

And another thing I think of a lot is we communicate our values in all sorts of ways throughout the day based on what we talk about with our kids.

If I decide to tell my child, oh, my friend is sick with the flu and I decided I was going to make her some soup today and bring it to her, that's a communication about, okay, I value friendships. I value taking care of my friends and being generous and thoughtful. We also communicate our values in the questions we ask our kids.

Just the everyday questions through the door after school. What's the first question we ask? And we could ask, how did your math test go?

Which is communicating that, okay, grades are really, really important to us and academics are important.

We could also ask, you know, what's something that happened today in which you were kind to someone or, you know, was someone helpful to you today to really, you know, get them thinking about the values that you care about and the priorities you have as a parent.

And so, so I think those are kind of two ways that I think that we can think about being intentional with our parenting in ways that are kind of simple.

It's like ask a question that reflects your values or talk about something you did today that really illustrates to your kids what's important to you. And those can be very, very powerful ways to sort of shape our kids character and their futures.

That's a really interesting point because I don't think the average parent really would think about that in terms of what they're sharing with their kid as, as, you know, illustrating their values. So that's a really interesting point. Online misinformation and disinformation.

This is another piece that you talk about in your book, certainly at an all time high, depending on where you look. It's everywhere. And you know, oftentimes kids think that they know more than their parents. Right. For a whole host of reasons.

So.

What do you say to parents in terms of how they can help their kids think critically about what they're seeing online when even adults struggle to, you know, decipher whether this is truth or fiction?

Yes, it's very hard. And it does help if you feel like you have some of these skills yourself.

I mean, the first thing that researchers said to me was, well, if you want to, if you want to raise a media literate kid, it helps to be media literate yourself. And I do point to some resources. Crash Course is a great YouTube series that you can watch that, that, you know, introduces media literacy concepts.

I think that, you know, a first step is having conversations with your kids about what they're seeing online and being sort of injecting some. Some curiosity and some questioning in there to help kids understand that, you know, everything they're seeing, everything they're consuming is.

Is made by people, and people have biases and people sometimes have agendas. So, you know, my.

My daughter the other day was talking about how important it was for her to wash her face twice a day, and she said she saw this on YouTube. And I. And I started a conversation about, well, why do you think the. Why do you think these influencers are telling you that?

And could they maybe be selling some products that they want you to use and they want you to, you know, use them twice a day so you. You buy more and, you know, just thinking about, well, what could be the. The hidden agenda behind the messages that, that. That we're getting?

Another thing is I really, I recommend talking about expertise and the idea that you, you know, if you're getting information from a source, you want to think about, does that source, that person, whatever it is, that company, that website, have expertise in the area in which you're getting this? You know, in the area where the. And so my son might say something about, well, Mr.

Beast told me this fact about spiders, and I might say, okay, well, that's really interesting. So does Mr. Beast, does he know a lot about spiders? Does he have expertise in spiders? Do we trust what he says about spiders?

So just kind of getting them to reflect on that and think about what is expertise and how do we evaluate it? That can be really helpful, too.

You alluded to being intentional in terms of parenting. You also emphasize in your book, activist Parenting. Can you take us through what you mean by that and how does that look?

Yeah, there's so much going on in the world today that I think feels scary. There's a lot of rapid change. And kids, teens, young adults might be really scared based on what they're hearing and seeing.

And so one thing I think is really important is when you're talking about things in the world that are scary to always talk about, okay, well, where do we have agency here? What can we do about this?

And ensuring that every sort of maybe scary or worrying conversation about the world is accompanied by a conversation that is rooted more in hope and in activism. And so, okay, we don't like this thing that's happening in the world right now. What could we do? You know, where do we have some power?

Could we call our representatives? Could we, you know, support an organization with the money we have saved?

Maybe, you know, my kids get allowances and they have give jars that they put their money in, which they can use to, you know, give to charities. So really thinking about, okay, this issue is a problem. And it's. It feels. Maybe it feels hopeless, but there's always something that we can do.

And I think the more that we can communicate that, the more that we can talk about what we do as parents, the steps we are taking to help make the world a better place, to illustrate to our kids again that this is a value, this is a priority we have.

I think that goes a long way to both ensuring that our kids feel a sense of optimism and hope when things are difficult, and also helping them recognize what are the construction, concrete things that they can be doing throughout their lives to make a difference.

When you talk about hope, I'm curious, are you more hopeful now after going through the process of doing the research and speaking to all the researchers you did and looking at all of that and writing your book than you were when you started that book and you have those sleepless nights?

Absolutely, I do. I feel much, much better.

I think some of that is a product of, you know, really having dug into the research and seen that there are these broad themes. You know, it's not. It's not about getting everything perfect. As a parent, we can't do that anyway. But, you know, I was.

I was always worried that because. And I think a lot of the messages we get as parents suggest that, you know, all these little details have to be done perfectly.

As a parent, you have to respond the exact right way when they ask a particular question. You have to have the exact right tone of voice all the time, or you're going to mess up your kids. And that is not what they. The research says.

I mean, the research suggests that we really need to focus more on the big picture.

The types of conversations we have, the general ways in which we engage with our kids, you know, the respect that we pay them, the way that we listen to them. These patterns matter much more than, like, getting all the details exactly right. And that, to me, was really reassuring.

And just the fact that there are, you know, there are things that parents can do to nurture resilience and empathy and media literacy and financial literacy. And they're not all that hard. Like, they're not scary. There are things that. That are within everybody's reach and absolutely doable.

So, yes, I feel so much better now than I did when I started digging into the research and when I was, you know, unable to sleep. I'm sleeping much better now.

Oh, thank Goodness, it's always good to have good sleep for sure.

So along those lines then, Melinda, in what ways would you say that, you know, having gone through this process of writing this book has influenced, impacted your parenting in terms of your 14 year old son and your 12 year old daughter. Anything that you're doing now that's different.

Than before, I do think I'm listening to them in ways that I didn't before.

I, you know, I always thought that when kids, you know, and they, kids say things sometimes and you're like, wow, that is, I disagree with that or that is wrong or that opinion is, that doesn't, that doesn't feel, that feels a little off.

And I always thought, oh, this is my opportunity to lecture them, to jump in with my opinion and tell them, you know, no, no, no, this is what you need to think or this is, this is, you know, a better way to think about this.

And what I learned from the research is that it's really helpful to, to hold back a little bit on that impulse, take a deep breath and actually ask your kids, you know, tell me more about that, tell me more about why you feel that way, why you think, think that and really give them that benefit of the doubt at first. Listen to what they have to say.

Often I find that my kids opinions are actually more nuanced than I thought when they first, you know, came out with whatever they were going to say. And that just that act of feeling heard. This is really interesting research.

The act of feeling heard and listened to makes people more open minded and more willing to, to listen and consider other perspectives and have less extreme views. So in that moment of listening to your child and they feel, oh, mom or dad really wants to know more about how I feel about this.

Once they've shared that, they are then in a much better place to listen to what you have to say if you do want to respond and share your own thoughts. But just giving our kids that respect and those moments of curious listening, it can be so powerful.

You know, it's interesting hearing you describe the book and the research that so much of what you've written, I think really is applicable to adults. Right.

And, and I, I can't help but think that here we are talking about kids, but there are a lot of adults that could really use this information as well for themselves.

Yeah, I absolutely agree and I have certainly applied some of these lessons that I've learned from the research to my, to my broader, you know, relationships and how I engage with the world, how I engage with other people because it is like very broadly applicable advice that can be very helpful.

What would you like readers of hello Cruel World to take away from your book?

Hope? I think there's so much fear among parents, so much anxiety right now.

There's so many alarmist messages in the, in the media right now about parenting, and those are not super helpful. Those do not make us better parents usually. I mean, they can often make us just make decisions that are more fear based.

And so I really hope that my book and I hope that parents in general can let go of some of the fear and feel a little more agency, feel a little more in control, feel a little more hope for their kids and for the future.

That's a wonderful way to end our interview. Melinda Wenner Moyer, author of hello Cruel World Science Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times.

Thank you so much for your time and your insight today.

Thank you, Leanne.

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