High School to University: What Parents & Students Need to Know

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Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Leanne Castellino. Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Lianne Castelino.

Our guest today is a professor emeritus from York University.

Professor Michael De Robertis was a professor of physics and astronomy for over 35 years, carrying out original research in astrophysics and astronomy. He has also contributed to undergraduate and graduate student teaching and supervision and has served in many administrative roles.

Professor De Robertis recently produced a series of videos to help students and families answer the key academic and administrative questions that they may encounter in the first year of university. Professor De Robertis is also a father of two and he joins us today from Toronto. Really appreciate you taking the time.

My pleasure.

You certainly have all kinds of experience with students in this age group, given your background, but I wonder what made you feel compelled to develop this video series and the documents to help parents and students heading into their first year of university?

Well, Lianne, I had and I just retired.

I had initially made some content via videos on astronomy and astrophysics, but then it came to me when I reviewed my career how how many challenges that students in my first year through fourth year classes faced that involved academic and administrative challenges and they tripped on some of these things and had they been aware of them and possible solutions and strategies to get around them or through them, it would have made their lives much, much better. I think as an undergraduate student, and it all starts at first year, I might say that I'm not with a faculty of education or anything like that.

I'm very much in the trenches and it's my observations that I tried to address in making this video and the supplemental documentation.

So certainly no shortage of things for people to know. How did you go about parsing through all that information to get to the basic important points that you thought they should know?

Well, interestingly enough, university faculty, those who are in the classroom, both online and person to person, face to face, we have been encouraged on our own and through our senior administration to make the connection with undergraduate students much stronger.

It used to be that course descriptions in the syllabi or the synopsis that you'd receive when you're choosing your courses was a few sent long and that's all you got.

And then even on your first class they would mumble a few things so that his faculty would mumble a Few things about how the course was going to be addressed, but it became more and more formal and this was really helpful for students.

And I had been involved in this process through the faculty of science at my university at York University, but I had colleagues all over the place that shared these experiences with me and I thought had gotten to a point where I almost had everything already in my synopsis and syllabi. So why not actually address students who are going into first year prospective students, university students?

After all, 60% of Canadian high school graduates go to either college or university. So a significant fraction end up in university.

And some of them have experiences that, shall we say, aren't the most pleasant because they've tripped on something that, that, that could have been ameliorated, it could have been addressed in a video and a document. And so that's why I have done that and that's what compelled me. It's pretty well all there. I think I'll just put it together in a video.

So then, from your experience, what would you say are the biggest differences between high school and university that parents would often underestimate?

University is significantly, or I would say radically different from high school. So it's not just grades 13, 14, 15 and 16.

As an undergraduate, students very early on realize that they're in a class of potentially dozens to hundreds of students. And there are reasons for very large introductory classes, which invariably is the first year class size.

No matter what university you attend, even smaller universities will still have a class size of 150 to 250.

And in larger universities such as University of Toronto, York University, for example, University of Montreal, you're in for hundreds and several hundred sometimes. And the, so that's, that's immediately radically different.

And then you soon find out that the lecturer, the teacher, the professor doesn't really care that you show up.

You could sleep through all their lectures and get them online, or as long as you hand in your assignments, show up for your term tests and finally exams, that's all they expect of you. That's radically different, I'm told, from talking with high school students in first year classes all the way through my career.

I mean, in high school they care about who you are and, and they, they want to make sure that you know, any issues are addressed.

So the idea that you know, you have great personal autonomy at universities, you're on your own to a large extent now, there is a great deal of assistance that is available, but as much that's what I tried to fold in in my videos, that is, there There are resources that can help students.

In fact, even in the summer prior to entering first year university, there are resources that universities now produce called, you know, transition resources that help students make that transition. To some extent that. But there are also resources throughout first year that help students if they stumble for one reason or another.

And so it is, I think, that idea that you're on your own and you need really to manage your own time, to manage your affairs very carefully, because you have five courses, essentially two to three hours a week, lecture times, some lab times, other constraints on, you know, your, your time. And you need to manage this very, very carefully if, if you're to get it all done.

And the temptations are there to pull you away from doing the lecture material to studying, to prepare for your assignments is there too, because you have new friends, you have new distractions. And in fact, you now are not just walking to school or traveling on public transportation.

In a few minutes ride, you're actually going to a campus largely unless you're in residence and you know you're there for the whole day. Are you going to make use of your time in the libraries, in small study carrels, that kind of thing.

So it needs a great deal of thought to get the most out of your time at university.

That level of independence for some students, certainly today, when we factor in that there's still a lot of helicopter parenting going on, and parents certainly to a large degree, many of them micromanaging what their kids do and don't do, that level of independence can be overwhelming for the average student. What can you say to a parent who is in this situation about how they could potentially ease their, that transition for their child?

That's a difficult question. And of course it depends on each individual son or daughter.

But first of all, on a logistical level, traveling to campus, getting familiar with the campus the whole family can walk around, find your lecture halls. This is where so and so your daughter's going to be your lecturer. This is where your son is going to be doing his lab.

And it's very, very helpful for the whole maybe to tour and you won't be embarrassed because you won't run into anyone else. Also taking advantage of these transition programs.

And there are programs that can help even small universities have these programs typically help you write a little better, help you communicate a little better. But I want to really emphasize that there are transition programs in the STEM fields.

So science, technology, engineering, math fields where the language of communication in STEM is mathematics.

And so many students, even A students and B plus students, in high school sometimes face serious challenges in their disciplines when they reach university. And to be able to speak the language of mathematics really helps to smooth that transition. And it has.

These transition programs in STEM mathematics have been tested now for over a decade in many of the larger universities such as York and the University of Toronto. And they find that students, even students who think they know math very well, go into these math transition programs.

These are usually intensive four days a week, six hours a day.

Those students who go through these programs, even if they had an A in and a B or in high school in math, they do perceptibly well a half a letter grade, sometimes even a whole letter grade better, not just in math, but in their science courses all around. So it really demonstrably helps. So taking advantage of this transition programs are really good. But I also think there are other issues.

The idea of encouraging time management skills, asking your son or daughter not just how things are going, but discuss academic related matters, what do you think of this and why, that kind of thing.

So to encourage time management skills, the ability to discuss and to martial evidence based answers, I, I know that sounds a bit formal, but just taking it up one notch to encourage your son or daughter to start that conversation at a little higher level so that when they hit the ground in September, they hit the ground at least walking, if not running, because we'll talk, I'm sure, about critical thinking skills and professional transferable skills, which are really key.

Absolutely.

Before we get to that, I do want to ask you because for some kids, you know, just the thought of making that big step and maybe not feeling prepared or self assured is already putting them behind the eight ball and maybe having them question the why of why am I going to university in the first place. So is there something that you can say to parents to help them help their child clarify that why as to why they're heading to post secondary?

Yes, I think perhaps a little simplistically in the video and in the document I sort of characterize sort of three groups of high school graduating students. So one group has known for forever Tensor professional programs and they know what they want and they know how to get it. And that's wonderful.

So there are people who, you know, enter university for specific reasons and have, are laser focused on succeeding and that's wonderful. There are other students though, and I think perhaps it's a majority, it's arguable, who don't really know what they want to do.

Their best friends or friends are also going off to university. They have heard that, you know, if you get a undergraduate degree, you usually earn more money per cap per year.

And, but by and large, they're not ready or willing or whatever to enter the worker career world yet. And that's fine. That's fine.

But they lack, I think, a deeper motivation which I think the third group of students has, and that is the motivation you're going to university to learn what the most brilliant and incisive and interesting people throughout history and at this moment have said about various issues, issues that impact us as human beings are to satisfy our curiosities in psychology and physics, in the languages and sociolog.

What have people said all across the world in various cultures that in fact help us learn more about who we are individually and who we are as a community. And that community could be nation and even the world.

So I think the I, and that's the, the group, by the way, that most professors like to teach to these person, the folks who are really interested just soaking up the, the, the information, not just the information, but the reason people thinking this way throughout history and what different views have been put forward for various cultures and various societies. The ability to be able to listen, to learn and to argue in a comprehensive way is really, really helpful.

You alluded to discipline and time management earlier, and I wonder if we could unpack that a little bit because I think you could argue that those two concepts or things that, that are part of a lifelong journey for most of us trying to constantly hone, you know, how to be better disciplined and better use, use our time.

But what can you say to parents in terms of any practical tips that they could potentially offer to that child entering university in advance of them heading off?

Yes, that's.

That, that, that is a challenge, of course, particularly in the summer where, you know, students are not going to school and they expect the reins not to be as tight at course, but I think perhaps just engaging in discussions, a variety of discussions, not necessarily politics, but what do you think of this particular idea?

Someone has talked about this and, you know, just encouraging your son or daughter to, I think just weigh in on the various issues and not just this is what I think about it, but why that kind of thing.

So there's, there's this type of issue, but I also think the idea of time management is critical and I'm sure we'll get more into that and if there are ways of maybe, maybe suggesting that, you know, at a certain time on the weekend we might have just a family conversation about anything that you found interesting this day and Once students get into university, if they live at home asking them not just about how was your day and of course my boys would say good and that's all you get out of them but actually trying to tease out of them you know, what kind of what did they learn today? What impact is their day to day education. Having to share that with the family, with their brothers and sisters perhaps at home.

So I think and trying to time management is more of a logistical issue as we'll get into but any, anything parents can do to, to really help get students more organized and slightly more disciplined because that's critical to succeeding at university.

So then in an ideal state as an educator when should time management skills let's call them at home really be introduced and honed at what age in advance of postsecondary.

Yeah, the, the reason that that time management is, is so important is be that are are vying for you are competing for your attention at university. You know, so and so the night before a term test they want to go out to a club. No, no, I, I, I really have to study this evening.

And more importantly actually there are strategies that allow you to be intelligently lazy.

So in the end in fact you don't have to spend as much time for example studying for exams and tests if you a term keeping up with the stuff, keeping up with the lectures, that kind of thing, reviewing your materials. So that's very important. But time, time.

So time management skills are essential to succeed and any way that parents can somehow inculcate this into the children the better.

I really have unfortunately not great ideas here but it's anything that creatively that they can think of certainly once they get to university having their sons and daughters right at their schedules very clearly and checking in on them.

I know it's a little difficult because independence is there is being sought but just checking in, making sure don't leave it to the end of term to ask your son or daughter how are things going? Take weekly interest in it and there'll be certain weeks that they won't want to talk because they're so engaged in their studies.

But there are other weeks, most weeks maybe 10 out of the 12 weeks where they are approachable and I think that's the time to try to engage them little by little.

We talked about the why for a student why are they entering post secondary an academic institution.

But let's talk about a student's sense of purpose and how would you say that that affects their resilience and their academic performance especially during those sort of challenging first terms post secondary.

Yes, if I think it's my colleagues, social scientists and sociologists and in fact it's pretty common sense that folks that, that had meaning and purpose in their lives, a big subject, you know, tend to, tend to fare better psychologically just in general. So meaning and purpose are critical and that's why to get, I think a proper motivation to enter into university.

And even though there'll be lows, but there'll be highs as well throughout the term.

And I think keeping, keeping the, I think your attention focused on, on the final goal essentially which is doing well in a course and learning as much actively. That is really the critical element. And so that's why it's important to list to have a schedule to keep to the schedule to be disciplined and.

But in fact making it very clear that this night, this time is set for studies. This time is for my labs, this time is for my assignments and this time on the weekend is for maybe going somewhere with friends and family.

We live in a world of synchronous and asynchronous learning, all kinds of digital tools that are for the most part aimed at making things more efficient and helpful. But why is physical presence in a class still so essential and especially in the first term at university?

This is a critical question because I've seen so many students at the beginning of term they come to class and they are amazed that this is just grade 12 all over again in physics or in literature and, and then you come to the second class and they see the same effect.

Well, maybe I don't have to come to class since the class is being video recorded and the, the instructor makes it available online three or four days later. Why should I go to class and get up at 8am and I'll just watch it online?

But in fact, why do you go to professional sporting event instead of watching it on tv? It turns out that the environment is, is critical and studies have shown this, which I find amazing, is critical to in fact the success of students.

So being in the classroom and watching the actual, the, the fellow students and your instructor to be somehow closer, more engaged with the instructor makes a difference. And not only that, I mean, you can.

I still remember when one of my instructors was asked a class when I was an undergraduate and the instructor doing that, you know, I remember the question and I remember that critical answer that was given. That's not something you're going to get from a recorded lecture.

But the other more critical thing too is Leanne, that small group environment that is to engage in studies in small groups, four, five or optimal size is. Is has been shown to be a wonderful environment for study and for reflection and for doing well in any type, of course.

And when you are actually in an audience and you see people around you, you engage them in conversation.

Before an actor lecture, this often forms the nucleus of these friendship, potential friendships and this small group experience that they meet for coffee.

They agree that, you know, on Fridays at 11 o' clock we can actually meet for coffee and discuss what the professor meant about this particular thing. And they're great for term tests and exam preparations too. That's something you don't get, of course, for the recorded lecture.

When we talk about digital tools, certainly AI is everywhere and pervasive in every part of society these days. In terms of academic integrity and honesty. That certainly enters the equation when you talk about AI.

What do parents and students need to know in your estimation about vat?

Well, cheating in quotations, you know, has always been an issue. I remember when I first started that the essays for hire business was just getting started. And I remember coming across my first essay for hire.

I didn't know what the words meant, let alone, I'm sure, what this student, first year student meant by it. And of course, forms of potential cheating have in fact got more and more sophisticated.

And things like AI, generative AI are very helpful tools for research for study purposes, but in fact they have their limitations.

And plagiarism, that is pawning off your work, someone else's efforts as your work without proper attribution is becoming so challenging for instructors.

I have a esteemed colleague who's won so many awards in just this winter term, from January through April, he was giving an online course, so a synchronous course where he had a lecture hour and then assignments and even tests were done online.

There was massive cheating using AI, because if you're doing your test on your laptop and the privacy of your home, you are not supposed to in fact use someone else's efforts. You supposed to use your. What's in here a factor to write and perform in this context.

And they found that a quarter of the class was charged with plagiarism, essentially, or academic dishonesty. And so it's very, very critical to try to understand what, of course we have to. What is academic integrity?

The idea of it is you yourself who have to perform, you yourself have to in fact understand the material and be, be able to in fact share these ideas and views in an exam, in a test, even if it's only A multiple choice test. But the idea that we can cheat, that we can get ahead this way is, is, is only hurting the actual student herself or himself.

Because in the end, what are you going to do if you get caught cheating?

For example, you can be not only given an F in the course, but if it's a second or third offense, you would in fact be tossed out of, out of school potentially.

And if you take a job or you graduate and you take a job and you are asked to perform and you are not on top of your game type of thing that you should have been with getting a diploma from this particular program, you're actually hurting yourself and you're hurting the university itself, of course. So this is something that we want to avoid.

We want to instill or inculcate ethics and academic integrity from the earliest grade possible and avoid plagiarism. Do the work and work hard and do the work. And that's what you, how you get by at university, not cheating.

What would you say Professor De Roberta's should be ideally the role of a parent in first year university? We've talked about a lot of different topics, but ideally what should that role of the parent look like?

Again, depending on the son or daughter, I think there are some times and occasions where you want just to be the silent support for them. I'm here. But also there are times when you want to be actively, not just passively supporting. Well, what did you learn?

Learn today I'm really interested in this course on geography and I always had an interest in. Now you're achieving my life's goal in taking these courses and trying to engage your son or daughter in fact discussions about their work.

These are really helpful things and you can also, you know, probe them. How's studying going? Is there anything I can do that would help, you know, allowing you to have more time?

Now they, they unfortunately as, as time has gone by, students have had to work, do 15 and 20 hours worth of, of, of non academic work that is to earn a little bit of money or to support themselves or their family.

This is a challenging, challenging of course situation where you also have to devote so much time to your studies and to your academics and then you also have to work two or three nights a week and perhaps one day on the weekend.

So anything that's, that parents can do to ameliorate, you know, some of these, these pressures and challenges to allow their son or daughter to focus more on their studies and to be engaged in helping them by expressing, you know, interest in their studies and Discussing things with them is, is, I think a really good plan.

We're almost out of town, but I do have two questions that I wanted to ask you. You've got two sons in their early 20s.

How much of what you have developed in these videos and the tools that you've produced did you use with your own sons, having all the experience that you do as an educator and as a parent?

I soon learned and my wife is a much more dedicated and accomplished educator than I am in this context. And although she can't do physics, she will say, you can't teach your own children. And I learned soon on that is my, my, my.

You know, one can point them in the right direction, but they have to learn. Some of them are more stubborn, hard headed than even their father.

And they try to do it on their own, but always the, the opportunity was there, the interest was there, the opportunity, if you need any assistance, just let me know what are you studying now? That kind of thing. But there seemed to be a plan in their heads that they would not ask their mom or dad specifically about academics.

And they had a couple of rough terms, but they learned in the end that when we work together, it turned out to be a much more pleasant and edifying experience.

Is there a piece of advice, maybe a couple of pieces of advice that you'd give to a parent whose child is about to enter university in terms like top line tip for them to consider?

Yes, I really think you know your son or daughter very well. You know, what's intrusive, what isn't. I do not be passive, do not wait till the end of term to be engaged.

But, but try to, through very gentle terms, try to tease out, you know, try to tease out exactly how their term is going, what they're learning about, profess an interest, even if you don't have an interest in their various subjects, but also encourage their professional transferable skills.

So what that means is that all courses try to teach critical thinking to be engaged in what the arguments are, how do you assemble the information, how do you sift the information, how do you in fact come to a conclusion based on the evidence that is logical and rational, for what reasons?

So the idea of enhancing critical thinking skills and the idea also of improving and enhancing their written, oral and digital images or footprints or communication skills is essential.

That's what all courses now, or what the program, what the faculty, or what the university, all programs try to build up these critical thinking skills and it's these skills that they take out into the working world, whatever that may be.

And also I also strongly suggest that some students at the end of first year find that their major, perhaps that they signed up for in grade 12, wasn't exactly what they had anticipated.

They actually found perhaps this program, which they took some elective courses in, is actually much more interesting and the original was a bit pedantic or too simple, too hard, whatever. And to encourage, then you can make slight turns, even sharp 90 degree turns, and still fare very, very well at university.

So encourage students to pursue their interests as well, because studies have shown it's not rocket science, that if you in fact are taking a subject that you really like, you're really engaged and you're going to do better. And I think that's the kind of thing that you want to encourage as well. And always be there in the highs and the lows.

You can always talk to me about it, or just may at the very end say There are lots of resources at Universe 10, particularly the faculty advisor. So many students never talk to their faculty advisor, but that's a key, key resource that universities have. They know what's going to get you there.

They know how you perform. They know what it requires to get to the next level. They know what the resources are in a university that you may never have even heard of.

Use these resources, use your faculty advisor and talk to your lecturers. Not like me. Talk to your lecturers if you have questions, outstanding questions that you can't answer.

So much to know and what is definitely an exciting time in a young person's life. Professor Michael De Robertis, retired Professor of Physics and Astronomy from York University. We so appreciate your time and your insight today.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Lianne, for allowing me the opportunity.

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