The Empty Nest: Coping Strategies When Your Kids Leave Home

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Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Lianne Castelino.

Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Lianne Castelino. Our guest today is a licensed therapist, a TEDx speaker, and a life coach.

Molly Carroll is also a former teacher, a podcaster and an author. She combines therapeutic approaches and coaching tactics to help individuals overcome adversity through personal growth and self discovery.

Molly is also a mother of two teens and and she is looking at empty nesting happening to her in the near future. She joins us today from Bend, Oregon. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thank you for having me, Leanne. It's an honor to be here.

Not quite an empty nester yet, but certainly it is a topic that is very close to your heart. Tell us why.

You know, as a therapist, I've been in private practice now and seeing clients for almost 25 years. I have approached this topic with thousands now of parents in this time.

I've heard so many different stories of being an empty nester or a bird launcher. Now we're electing to say people are like, didn't reframe it.

And I had to just walk through it and realize that, you know, it was going to eventually happen to me. And I thought because I always had a job and I had a career and you know, I, I got this, I've worked with families and children for years.

And then my son went away to college last year and felt like I had had a limb amputated.

And then it really became personal because as we know, even as therapists, we could hear thousands of stories about different things in people's lives.

But when it happens to you personally in a, in a very personal way, it's something and it shifts and you have a different relationship with your children going to college and the concept of being an empty nester. So even though I still have a daughter at home, I have a 17 year old daughter. She's incredibly independent and always has and is rarely home.

So I feel like I'm in the kind of this lucid dream space of I'm not an empty nester yet, but it kind of feels like it. So that's where this kind of concept became even more close to my heart is when my son went to college last fall.

So was there a particular point either before, during or after he went to college that really Hit you in a specific way.

You know, I've always been someone that's incredibly curious about life and people and aware and done kind of my own inner work too. I've been in therapy, I went to India, I met the Dalai Lama. I've taken workshops with Brene Brown and Jack Kornfield and lots of other teachers.

I read lots of books. So I kind of thought that I had this in the bag, like I think where I could.

But I could start to slowly feel the senior year, the last, the last game, the last ceremonies, the last picnics, you know, that senior year you're exhausted as a parent because there's so many less. So I started to feel like my body, my stomach tightening more, you know, waking up in the middle of the night and I'm like, is it menopause?

I'm having sweats, is it anxiety? My kids going to college, I wasn't really sure, but it wasn't until we dropped off my scent.

My son is an athlete so we had to go early to his college. And it of empty and not the traditional like welcome parents, drop off your kid in the dorm room. It was a very untraditional kind of drop off.

But it was. Wasn't until I walked in the door of my house and my daughter was gone and I just was there and it was quiet with my husband, who I do love.

But you kind of are looking at each other like, oh gosh, what are we going to do? Where it really felt like death, like a grief. And it hit me as if kind of the same feelings I've had to deal with.

I've had a lot of different sets of grief in my life. Both my parents have passed. I've had friends die of that same exact feeling of walking in after the funeral of my parents.

And I thought this is going to be a much bigger transition than I allowed myself to think or feel.

So then what would you say to parents about how they can potentially honor that grief? How did you go about it and what do you suggest to others?

I love this concept. It's actually 12 step. And in the 12 step around the three A's, awareness, acceptance and action.

And I think if you don't hit all three, you're missing the process. And the gift of grief we call this, we also have this acronym called God Gifts of death. But I would say gifts of grief, right?

There's gifts that come through this transition time. So the first one is that awareness piece of like don't poo poo what you're going through.

You know, lots of people are going to say, would you rather have them sleeping in your basement? You know, and they make you, you know, you can feel bad about it. Like, why am I having such a hard time?

Sally over there is playing tennis every day and her and her husband are taking their trips and they're seem so excited. Why am I feeling like I just got putt punched in the gut?

You know, so just the awareness around it is real and it is here and you are having feelings around it. And then the second kind of is that, that acceptance, the Buddhist concept of non attachment, like accept this is where you are. It's not.

It kind of reminded me at birth. You know, you have those moments where you're having your baby and you're like, oh God, really? This is only one way out. And I got to go for it.

And they're going to come out one way or another. It's kind of. I felt similar to that sort of metaphor of like, this is happening. Molly, he is going to college.

You can't let your emotions or the parents listening, you know what you're going through, affect their experience. You gotta be very careful. That's a very thin line. And so just acceptance of it is. And then action.

How can I make this a time for me with accepting my emotions and awareness that this is gonna happen? Around action.

And we can talk about that, like around identity, a parenting identity in this generation of how we are parents and it's different than other generations. Everything from. I just did this this morning preparing for this interview.

I changed my screen on my phone, not to my kids, to a beautiful setting, like of a travel. What place I want to go travel, because every time I look at my phone, I see my kids. You know, that's a simple thing, but it's.

It's for me, it's for me in realizing that I have a life too. And how do I step more into the identity of Molly and my soul and my life and my passions and not just my kids?

You talk about a fine line.

Another delicate balance in this equation is letting your kids go, releasing them into that independent world that we've been preparing them for as parents, at the same time wanting to stay connected to them.

When.

What can you suggest based on your own experience, based on that of your patients, that parents can do to manage that piece?

I mean, I think the best thing is to remind yourself that you are having an experience in this and you're not alone. So what do you need to do to deal with your own emotions first?

Because for years I saw parents bring in their kids to work on the therapy, therapy issues about their kids. And some of it has to do with the family system. Some of them had to do with the parents trauma, some of it had to do with epigenet.

You know, there were lots of things.

So I would say the first step, people parents can do to let their kids really to disattach and let their kids have the experience they need to have is to tap into their own experience. Where am I sad? Where am I holding grief? Where am I having disappointment? You know, should I spend enough time? Did I work too hard?

Was I with them enough? I missed that one soccer game, you know, all those things just, you know, so get support. So is that a community of other moms? Is that therapy?

Is that nature? Is that exercise? You know, is that a meditation, meditation practice or you know, find your knitting, dancing, plays, travel.

What is it for you that's going to allow yourself to remind, to feel, deal with your emotions and not transfer those under your kids. Right. Projection, we call it, on your children. The second thing is to recognize that they need to have their own life.

I often say your children came from you, but they are not yours. They have their own life and they need to live their own life.

And if you're in touch with yourself, you know, when you're getting your little sticky fingers in there, you know, the meddling, or I'm just going to send this text, I mean, I just did it this morning to my son. I'm like, oh, Molly, don't send it.

You know, or when you're you wanting something from your children and you're wanting to hear that everything's okay, even though they may be going through transition of trying to find their people, their roommate isn't the best. Which statistically 10%, only 10% of kids stay in contact with their roommate after college. 90% do not.

Yet there's this whole myth of your roommate's going to be your best friend and you're going to grow old together. It's a myth, right?

So in order to let your kids really fly and go through the highs and the lows, check in on yourself and then also recognize when you're kind of meddling in their life and knowing that they're going to have their own life and their own experience and you can be there for that. You can like encourage them and not enable them, you know, let them have their own emotions and feelings.

And we could talk more about that, how to do that as well too. But yeah, that's what I would say is try to, you know, work like the oxygen mask, work on yourself first and then pass it to your kids.

Yeah, I was just going to say so much of what you're talking about there is the self awareness of the parent.

I'm curious as to what did you discover about yourself as you saw yourself going through this grieving period as you describe it, even though you have, you know, this practice, these patients, you know, all this sort of exposure and experience on that level with the idea of an empty nest, what did you learn about yourself?

It's a really good question. You know, the other thing is I should go back and I would say I wasn't the parent making the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

I traveled, I worked, I spoke to people, companies, I, you know, I worked part time so I was definitely home part time with my kids. So I think that I learned how much I loved being a mom. And if I'm really honest, I kind of sometimes didn't give that enough value.

And if I'm really honest, and I can't believe I'm admitting this on this podcast, I sometimes judge stay at home moms. I found myself lucky for them, you know, they got to go to two exercises class today instead of one.

They, you know, they can live and not have to work and you know, I had all these voices in my head and in reality one of the things I learned once my son left for college and my daughter's getting ready to leave very soon is that I really loved that. I loved that part of my life. It brought me a lot of joy. And the other thing I learned about is that I over identified with that part of my life.

I didn't think I did because I had this other career and I have a lot of friends and I have a big family, but I did. My son was an athlete, as I said. And I can't believe I'm going to call myself a soccer mom, but I was.

And I think that when I step back now, his life brought me more joy than my own life. My daughter's life brings me more joy than my own life. And it happens very slowly. It's so subtle.

It's like, it's almost kind of like we don't even know it's. I didn't even know it was happening. I can't say we, I, and maybe hopefully some people listening today can say the same things.

Like I didn't even realize that I would move mountains to get to my kids school play or you know, lose money to be Able to go to that, you know, hockey match or you know, any theater production or whatever you're doing with your kids. And so it slowly starts to happen because it brings you so much joy.

And yet at the same time I realized I got to this place and I'm getting to this place. I'm still in it, if I'm really honest. I'm getting better, but I'm still in it, this empty nesting and realizing like, who am I?

And in Jungian psychology we call it the wounded healer.

My wounds is now how I want to help others because I'm sure there's so many parents out there who their kids are going to college and they're facing the same question in the mirror, like, who am I now without them, what do I do? Even if I have a job, I'm not as happy. I have a little bit of depression, I'm scared more. I don't.

You know, every question could be differently, but I think I realized those two things of one, how much I really love being a mom and two, how much I over identified with being a mom and lots of my own self.

Yeah, well, and I was just going to say it really forces you, based on what you've described, to come to terms with your own identity.

Yes.

Did you go through that?

You went through that process and do you feel now as you embark on going through this a second time and let's call it sort of for real because it will be an empty nest in your home, do you feel better prepared? And what can parents do proactively potentially to prepare for the empty nest?

I was thinking about this preparing for you today. Yes. I did over identify and I've had to look at my identity as Molly, not Tommy and Cora's mom. Right.

And even my husband's wife or all the identities we have is I thought Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I thought about the foundation.

The first foundation of preparing yourself for your kids to go to college is really ask yourself those questions before they go or slowly start asking them, like, who am I and what do I love? And if I love it, why am I not doing it? Someone asked me to go away for the weekend, but I say no. Why are you saying no?

Someone asked you to join a knitting group on Tuesdays at 10 o'. Clock. Nope. Nope. I want to make sure I'm available for my kids. I. Why are you saying no? You've always loved knitting.

Like really ask yourself that foundation with compassion, always with compassion, not shame. Because as we know, shame does nothing. It's a. It's an emotion that serves no purpose. We all have it, but it serves no lifelong purpose.

And we have all the data to, you know, research that. Brene Brown's done all that with our vulnerability. But it's really like that first layer would be like, who am I? What do I love?

The second layer would be like, start doing those things. Start doing them more as your kids start to drive and going through the individuation process.

We call it psychology, where they're separating for you in a healthy way because they need to. May not always feel good. They may not always be nice to you. They may not always want to give you a hug.

They may not always want to be around you because they're wanting to. It's like, I always think of it as not a cutting of a cord, but more of a leash. Like those long dog leashes. They're going.

You're still tied to them, you're connected to them, you have a relationship with them, but they're not that close to you. They don't. They shouldn't be in your realm all the time.

So going through those Maslow hierarchy of needs of like, realizing the foundation of who you are and what you love, doing those things, embracing those times, recognizing who you are outside of your children and your other relationships, including if you're in partnership, including with your partner. I do think when your children go to college, it doesn't mean you won't have grief.

It doesn't mean you won't face your identity of being a mom and sad and feeling like I did like an amputee, like you lost a limb, but I think you will have a softer place to land on what to do next. And versus kind of lost. Like, I was more lost.

In the scope of your work and all the experience you have as a therapist. You know, when it. When we come to talking about major life milestones, do you see specific patterns that people go through?

Empty Nesting is one major life milestone. There are many others.

Are there patterns that you can pick out in terms of what you're seeing and how can parents better prepare for some of these patterns?

I definitely see patterns, and I think it's so individual. I always think of a Venn diagram, like, we're all going through the same thing. You're not alone. We feel so alone in these moments.

You're not alone, although you have a different experience from every single person on this planet. So we're going through the same experience, yet it will feel differently.

And one of the number one tools I love to teach people is when you wake up in the morning, you know, one of the things you can say to yourself, have a morning practice of something. And a lot of people talk about this, but it's really powerful to practice it like a muscle. It'll get stronger.

Meditation, not getting on your phone right away, journaling, making a cup of tea, you know, exercising, whatever it is for you. But the other question I often say is get to know your nervous system.

And the autonomic nervous system is made up of the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system. It's in the spinal cord and it absolutely is one of the biggest factors of controlling our emotions and how we react to every situation. Right.

Because the sympathetic nervous system is our fight or flight or fix or freeze. And it was really great when we had to fight a saber toothed tiger. But we don't need to fight a saber tooth tiger.

It could be a phone call from your kid and they're struggling. It could be an email from someone.

It could be running into someone in the grocery store and they ask you about how your kid's doing and you end up crying.

Like, you'll notice, your palms will start to sweat, your stomach starts to tighten, your eyes dilate because you're supposed to fight or flight, fix or freeze. That is not a conducive place to be when you're dealing with your emotions. So recognize when you're there.

And like a light switch, you can instantly turn on your parasympathetic nervous system, which is your rest and digest. Your digestive system works better. Your eyes are open.

You have a broader spectrum of possibilities of resiliency, of agency, that you are in control of your own life. Rumi, the poet, has a great quote. He says, the prison door is wide open. Why are you still inside?

And when you're in your parasympathetic nervous system, you can say to yourself, oh, my kid's having a hard time right now. I will be there for them. I hear you. I'm so sorry. I love you. You can do this. Be the bridge to resiliency for them, and they can handle this.

That's the parasympathetic nervous system.

The sympathetic nervous system is calling the counselor, finding their roommate, figuring out something to do in the town that makes them have a social thing. There's movies tonight. There's, you know, you're kind of in that frenzy of chaos, so really get to know.

So what I'm seeing across the board is when parents have sort of rituals and patterns of behavior to be in their parasympathetic nervous system. It's not getting rid of your sympathetic nervous system. We need it to function.

But it's recognizing when you're in your sympathetic nervous system and turning on your parasympathetic nervous system to be more grounded and connected. Because the key to, to your children is to be connected, not to be controlling.

For a healthy relationship, you'll have a healthy relationship with your kids and across the board, you'll. You'll have a healthy relationship with yourself.

Are there any specific ways that your connection to your son has changed or evolved now that he is no longer living in the same house as you?

Yes. And I'm going to be honest, both great and challenging. Because we were really connected. We were, we were more connected than my daughter and I.

And if she listened to this, she'd be like, oh yeah, we are. Like my daughter and I are close too, but it's just a different relationship. She's super independent.

She kind of came out of me going, see you later, mom. You know, like she was been the one who's traveled already alone and cooks for herself.

And she just has a really strong independent spirit like I did actually. And my son was a little bit worse home. All the kids were at our house. He'd say, mom, host the soccer parties, it's okay, you know.

So I would say one way that it has been stronger is that he knows we have that foundation and he can always call me and I'll be there. One way that has been more intense and challenging for me is he is pushing more away. Like several times this summer. He's like, mom, I'm a man.

Like, and he's 6 4, I'm 5 2, he's 64 and like 190 pounds. He's huge. And he would say, I got this, you know, I don't. I didn't ask for your opinion, you know, so I'm okay. And, and that's new. And I'm trying to.

Instead of hearing those and taking it personal, hearing that and taking it as signs of how to move to the next level of our relationship with my son and not getting mad or taking it personal. Now, I don't always do this perfectly. There are many times I was like, hey, wait a minute, you know, But I. But to. But it has.

So he's taking that leash further and further every year and individual individuating even more. And as parents we have to kind of follow their patterning of where they're at and trust that they have this and that.

If they want us, they'll reach out to us, and we need to be, then we can be there for them. If it works for us, too.

Molly, are there any specific misconceptions about empty nesting that in your practice you help your clients, individuals, families, face and reframe?

I think the biggest one is that we.

We don't deserve to have feelings around it, that we shouldn't be sad our kid got into college or our kids on a gap year, our kids started a new job and had to move to another city or something, and we should be happy about that. And. And if you aren't happy about it, you're being selfish.

And there's so much shame and blame around having sad feelings and scared feelings and loss and grief around this experience of empty nesting. And so what I always try to do is create space for all the feelings, because what happens if we don't let ourselves feel? We numb.

You go one track or the other. Like you get a fork in the road.

And if you don't let yourself go that left way and feel and cry or build a community or go to therapy or whatever you need to do therapy or to deal with your emotions you're having around your child and empty nesting and looking at your marriage and your relationships and even your house or your life, and you don't feel that. You go one other direction and that is numbing. You get busier, you watch more tv, you shop, you eat, you drink.

You get into the patterns so you don't have to feel. Your phone is a big addiction. You get on your phone, you scroll more.

And that isn't going to serve the transformation that can happen from empty nesting, because it is a transformation. It's like birth, it's like death.

It's one of those ritualistic, transformative times in a person's life where they can really grow and thrive and survive and have a whole other life if they don't, if they allow themselves to go through the experience and feel it. And so what I do is I just create the container.

I create a space for it with loving compassion and good listening skills and also relatability as a therapist. I'm a human, too. I'm in the room with them. I don't try to act like I don't have any of these issues or any of these problems.

I'm a very relational therapist, even though I'm a Jungian psychotherapist. And to let them know that they're not alone.

And then from that space, we can release and let go and shed so that we can, you know, kind of put on our new skin. One thing that I thought about today when I was thinking about this, Leanne, is I love the concept of snakes for metaphor. It's their.

Their sign of transformation, first of all. So if you see a snake crossing a road, so you're in transformative period.

And the other thing is, when a snake is shedding its skin, it's blind, it can't see, and it's really intense. It's not a comfortable process. So all the parents listening today, you may not know what's going on and how am I going to get through this?

And this is so intense. But just trust. Find that trust somewhere deep inside yourself or your past experiences that you got through other challenging times.

You will get through this. You'll get on the other side and you'll be a better person for going through this transformative process of letting your kids fly the nest.

You know, another really interesting aspect of this topic of empty nests is how your partner, husband, spouse, wife, whomever is responding at the same time as you're managing your emotions and your feelings around it.

What can you say about that in terms of how to be supportive, even if you probably are the one who, you know, may think you need more of the support at that moment? The fact is, moms are going to process this differently than dads.

Just fundamentally, how much time do we have? How honest can I be? My poor husband's going to hear it all.

I married an atheist scientist, and I was born and raised Catholic, even though, you know, I don't know, I'm a Buddha, like I call myself now, kind of a Buddhist, Catholic, everything. And I'm, as you could tell by just my personality, more emotional. I'm more motive. So personally, I'll just share a little bit.

Yes, we went through it very differently. He is not as affected by these sort of things. He's happy for them, he's proud of them, he's excited for them.

And what I would say is there's two sides. It's like saying, one, let yourself go through what you're going through, and two, try your best.

Although it's really hard to not take it personal that your partner is not going through it the same way. And this is another Beautiful part of 12 Step Around we need, or the Serenity Prayer.

You know, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Like, you need to know the difference. Your partner is going to go through it very different. And that has nothing to do with you.

Nor should you hinder yourself from what you're going through, nor hinder them from what they're going through or shame them, which I didn't always do. I would get mad at him or you don't understand. You know, we got.

We went through this and I've come out this other side trying to just accept that my husband's going to deal with situations differently than I am. And it's not his job always to make me feel better. It's not his job to take away my pain. It's my job. It's my job to face my own thing.

So as partnerships, I would say, you know what? This is going to be a new relationship. Recognize how much you put into your kids.

The marriage probably suffered, the relationship suffered, because in our generation, we put a lot more into our kids than our parents did and start rebuilding that like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. A walk at night, date night, conversations with coffee, honest truth telling, more joy. Listen to music.

No, it's not going to be like when you first met. So don't have that expectation.

The dating again and you're first in love and then I hope I can say it's like sex and intimacy and all that's going to be exactly like it was, you know, 20, 30 years ago. It's not. So have that acceptance of that. It's going to be something new. But what do you want to do together?

Rebuild this vision together, Maybe separately, go for a walk and come back together and say, what did you discover? What did I discover? Let's each point out two trips we want to do this year.

And finances may not always allow you to go to Europe four times a year, but you could go to your neighboring town and explore something there, find a new hike, both read a book and have a little book club together.

I mean, there's so different types of intimacy, different types of sex like, or different, you know, try to just mix it up so that you're realizing not only is your family changing, your marriage is changing, and it should, it should not be the same as when your kids are in the house. It should be differently. And as a, as a collective and individual, how do you want that to look like? So that's.

Those are some of the suggestions I would say to your listeners around their partnership or their, their marriage.

It's such an important point and often, as you mentioned, you know, something that we just overlook because we are so focused on that child for parents who are watching or listening to this interview, Molly, who maybe feel stuck, what would you suggest is a small step that they could take in terms of dealing with this major life transition, in this case, empty nesting that could get them to the other side.

I mean, I know I'm biased, but get a therapist, get a coach, join a parenting group. I mean, that's a big step because I know it takes a lot of courage to go into therapy. It's not easy to do the self reflective work.

And so that's kind of a bigger one. But I would say, or even just ask a friend if they have a therapist or ask a friend if they went through it and have a coffee with them.

The second thing I would say is, you know, I'm a writer and I don't write every day and. But every time I do sit down with pen and paper and write about my emotions and do what I can't remember her name. The Morning pages.

What was her name? Julia Cameron. Julia Cameron wrote a book called the Morning Pages.

And you do your morning pages, which is just three pages of writing, you know, and really, really get kind of clear on what is this really about for you? Because for some people it may be grief. For some people it may be identity.

For some people it may be having to look at their marriage and it's not the marriage they want or they need anymore. It could look like their identity, their relationship to their other children or to their own parents.

You know, so what is it really that you're dealing with? Get some clarity with curiosity and compassion. I call it the three Cs. Clarity, compassion and creativity.

When you look at any of these things and, and you could write about it, I would also say, say to step back a little bit. And I created this thing called pack, which stands for presence, awareness and compassion and the body.

You know, Bessel Von Folk wrote the book the body keeps the score. I mean the body tells us everything. If we could give it some space and solitude is to give yourself.

You're not going to want to because you're feeling really crummy. You're not going to want to be alone and.

But if you could give yourself two minutes a day to just get present with the body or present with your emotions. The A of pack is awareness. Like, okay, it looks like a brick. Oh, it looks like a. My heart's being clenched. And then compassion.

Bringing a warm blanket, bringing a cup of tea, bringing a voice of someone who spoke to you kindly or that reminded you you got through hard things in the Past. You can get through this, too, you know, this isn't a marathon. This isn't a sprint. People always like, it's not a sprint.

It's, you know, it's a marathon. I even say, it's not a marathon. This is. My dad had a quote. He said, the parent child relationship ends at one moment when I'm in the ground. Right.

He was kind of that Irish stoic. And he's right. This isn't like, you're not gonna have emotions around your kids, especially the mothers.

We birthed them, or most mothers birthed them. You may have adopted them, you know, but there's a different relationship, I would say, there.

And so just kind of give yourself that grace and space to recognize that this is a process. It's not something to fix or control. It's to embrace towards serenity with community and love and compassion for yourself and others.

We're almost out of time. But, Molly, I do want to ask you. You're about to go through this again. Different circumstance, different child, different. Lots of different things.

Do you feel better prepared?

Oh, my gosh. I am putting on my backpack because I wasn't. I call it the emotional backpack. I am like, I changed my screensaver.

I booked a couple trips with friends. I am looking at my work in a different way. I'm going to go. I'm like.

I've always been in private practice, but I've also run coaching groups for women, and I work with companies. I'm gonna. I'm taking on more clients. I'm doing more private practice work.

I'm looking at my marriage, and my husband and I are booking more trips, and I'm giving my daughter more space than I did my son. If I'm really honest, I'm letting her know that this is her time. It's not about me. And so, yes, I am. I am. I am changing the way. And it's not easy.

It's. It's intense. And it. I cry sometimes. I wake up anxious, sometimes. I struggle with anxiety, sometimes around this experience.

And because in the end, Leanne, this is what it's about. The emptiness, why it's so hard for people is because it reminds us of our own immortality.

It reminds us that this life we've had, we're kind of coming to a different phase of it. And it's not the phase of first having children in our 20s or 30s or whatever. Right. So there's just a bigger question.

Yeah, we'll have to end it there, Molly. But such a great point. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your insight with us today.

Thank you so much, Lianne. To learn more about today's podcast guest and topic, as well as other parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com sa.