Loneliness among young people has reached epidemic levels, with significant implications for their mental health and well-being.
In this episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino speaks to Milena Batanova, Director of Research and Evaluation at Making Caring Common at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.
Batanova sheds light on the disconnect between parents and teens regarding emotional support and the overwhelming achievement pressure that exacerbates feelings of isolation.
Drawing on recent surveys, she reveals that many adolescents prefer confiding in friends rather than their parents, citing a lack of understanding and empathy from adults.
The conversation emphasizes the importance of fostering genuine connections and empathy in parenting, as well as the need for society to prioritize social infrastructure and public education to combat loneliness.
Batanova encourages parents to model healthy relationships and engage in meaningful conversations with their children to help them navigate their emotional landscapes more effectively.
MILENA BATANOVA
Director of Research and Evaluation
Making Caring Common, Harvard Graduate School of Education
PhD in Health Behaviour and Health Education
Mother of 1
“we know from so much research and data that there does appear to be a decline in socializing time, where we are not really making enough time to really be together, especially in person.There is so much to gain from in person interactions — the eye contact, the body language — what proximity can do to attunement is huge. So I think that’s a big part of it.”
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Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is LIanne Castelino. Our guest today is the Director of Research and Evaluation at Making Caring Common, based at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Milena Batanova is a Ph. D. in Health Behavior and Health Education. She designs and deploys studies aimed at understanding the role of That caring plays in today’s world and gauges the effectiveness of caring strategies developed for parents and educators.
Milena is also a mother of one, and she joins us today from Cambridge, Massachusetts. Thank you so much for being here. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I thought we could start with a bit of historical context here. So the Making Caring Common project was founded back in 2013. For those who may not be aware, why was it launched and what is its purpose?
Yeah, thanks for that question. Um, so MCC was founded before I joined, I believe in 2017. Um, but it was created in 2013 out of a deep concern that we were demoting concern for others over traditional forms of success, like achievement and happiness. Um, and so they conducted in 2013, a survey asking youth to rank what’s most important for them.
Um, achieving at a high level happiness or to care for others. And maybe it’s unsurprising that, um, the vast majority of adolescents reported achievement or happiness. But the interesting thing was that they also surveyed parents and they asked parents what they prioritize for their children. Parents said caring.
So there was a really clear disconnect in the signals or the messages that young people were actually picking up from parents and what parents thought they were, um, modeling. So that sparked us on our journey. Why do you think that disconnect existed? Um, I think, you know, I mean, we see it in our research that there’s a disconnect, um, between parents and young people all the time.
And there’s miscommunication. Um, there’s lack of attunement, you know, parents thinking that they really know their kids, but they don’t. Um, in a recent Another recent survey we did, um, for example, we asked, we asked teens whether they would, you know, who they would go to for mental health support. It was really interesting that they picked friends overwhelmingly over parents, only like 30 percent or so picked parents.
And when we asked them why they wouldn’t go to their parents, they said the parents would either not understand what they’re actually going through, or they would try to fix their problems. And not really empathize or listen. So I do think there’s that huge disconnection piece of miscommunication. Um, but I also think, you know, as parents.
And I see this a lot, um, in general, um, whether, you know, it’s things that I’m reading or hearing, but in my own life, right, with friends and different communities, I do think there is a huge achievement pressure. There is just this constant pressure to succeed and to be the best or to be really good at something.
Um, I think we feel it as parents, um, and so, therefore, we, impart it on our children. It’s a huge topic with lots of layers. Certainly when you talk about the achievement culture and toxic achievement as it’s also been referred to, but getting back to the caring piece and the making common good a priority piece, how does that link that pursuit of the common good and of more caring?
How does that link to the epidemic of loneliness? Among young people in particular that we continue to see. Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, I’m not sure, you know, I really, I’m not sure we know enough to answer that question on one hand. I think some people can be lonely because they care so deeply for others and they try to do good, yet they feel like they live in a world where other people don’t care or others don’t seem to care.
Um, but on the other hand, we know that doing good, um, and pro social behavior in general is so good for us, right? There’s so much research and science to show, to demonstrate that doing good is good for our health.
So yeah, it’s tricky. Um, in a recent, so we did, you know, we had a recent survey on loneliness. Um, and I recall that we found up to 80, almost 80 percent of Americans that they want to do good work that helps others. Um, but we didn’t see a difference. For people who said they were lonely versus not. So I don’t quite know how that translates to young people.
Um, but it was really interesting that we found that in adults. Right. Um, but I also think that there’s a huge distinction between wanting to do good work and wanting to help others, um, versus actually doing it. Right. So I, I, I definitely want to look into that more. So let’s talk about that recent survey that you did, uh, with respect to making care in common on the topic of loneliness.
So let’s start Milena, if you don’t mind, by having you define loneliness. Sure. Yeah. So it’s commonly defined as the perceived gap, um, between one’s desired and one’s actual relationships and the negative feelings that come from that. Um, it’s really important to know that unlike actual isolation, which is objective.
Loneliness has also been defined as subjective social isolation or the perception that one is isolated from something or someone. So it really is about perception. Um, and I really like Renee Brown’s definition cause it’s, you know, it’s just so real. She basically defines loneliness as this really awful, painful feeling of not belonging.
Um, Yeah. I think those are the main definitions. Well, and building on that, it may surprise our listeners and our viewers to learn that there are different types of loneliness within what you’ve just described. Could you take us through that? Yeah, sure. Um, so there’s social or relational loneliness, uh, which basically asks the question, do you have communities or groups that you feel a part of, um, there’s emotional or intimate loneliness?
Um, where we would ask, do you have emotional support from someone significant or important in your life? Um, and then there’s also, I think what’s very largely overlooked is existential or sometimes referred to as collective loneliness. Um, which really gets at, do you feel a sense of connectedness or togetherness with others or with the wider world?
And so if you answer no to any one of those questions and you answer no quite regularly, um, then you’d most, you’re most likely lonely in one of those dimensions. Um, and clearly if you answer no across, um, All those types, you’re probably at heightened risk, right for, um, for loneliness. Um, and I don’t know if you want me to speak to our recent data because we actually did look at this, um, And I was really excited to do this because it seems like in the literature, there’s a lot of talk about these different types of loneliness, but they don’t seem to be explored at least quantitatively as much.
We have a lot of cool qualitative research, right, asking people about their experiences of loneliness and meanings of loneliness, but on a national level, I didn’t think I wasn’t seeing as much data on it. And so I was really excited that, um, we were able to partner, you know, capita, this awesome think tank that funded our study.
Um, uh, we were able to then work with you gov, uh, which is a research analytics group, right? To, uh, survey adults nationally across America. Um, and instead of we, we asked them whether they’re lonely, but we also asked them these different types of questions, right, to get at the dimensions or types of loneliness.
Um, and I think it was something like eight questions total or so. And it was really interesting, you know, from a, from a data person, um, to see that, oh, okay, the. The, um, our data did load onto what we call it two factors or two types. So social, emotional and existential. So the data kind of panned out right from what we knew in the literature.
Um, and we found basically about, you know, 35 percent of adults said they lack meaningful groups or community in America. Um, that was the most cited type of loneliness. Um, 25 percent or so said they don’t have enough close friends or family. This was actually higher in parents. 30 percent of parents said that.
Um, And I thought it was really alarming that we had about a quarter of adults saying that their place in the world does not feel important. Um, and again, this was higher for parents at about 30 percent just to give you some examples. Yeah, no, those are really interesting numbers and statistics. So as a researcher, as somebody who’s on the front lines of, you know, extrapolating and looking at this data, like, what do you take away from those kinds of numbers, particularly as they are higher in the parent group, as you pointed out?
Um, yeah, I mean, we’re in a crisis of social connection. Um, we really are, you know, I, I know that we we ourselves have used the term epidemic. Um, I will say, though, as I dig more and more into the research, the data past studies, it’s actually really hard to find trend data over time, right? Because an epidemic means there’s some sort of sudden surge of disease or health related behavior.
And I’m not sure we’re totally seeing that. We did see that unsurprisingly during COVID, right? Like we did, that was our very first study on loneliness. And that’s kind of what started our interest in this area. Um, where we found, I mean, it was something like 36 percent of adults reported loneliness just recently we found it was 21%, but we’re using different data sources.
Right. So I do have to caveat with that. Um, But during the pandemic, we also found that something like 61 percent of adult young adults. We’re reporting loneliness and 51 percent of moms of young kids, you know, and you know, it was COVID, right. And it was at the peak and height of COVID. So that’s probably not surprising.
Um, but the fact that we’re still seeing, you know, maybe not as high, but high numbers of loneliness and, um, across the board and in different populations is really concerning. Um, And I think what parenting, you know, we did ask in that, in a, in the recent survey we did on loneliness, we also asked parents what contributes to their stressors.
Um, and I think, I believe number one was being really busy. Um, and. Um, doing too much, um, and I think the second most cited was marital, marital issues, marital relational problems. So building on that, then what have you been able to discern are some of the root causes of loneliness among kids and young people today?
Yeah, I, I wish we, I would love to do more research in this area. Um, I just noticed that, uh, the UK, you know, the UK. Has a lot of great, um, research in this. Um, they just came out with a paper, um, asking adolescents what causes loneliness and what you services can help prevent it. Um, and the 2 most cited things were personal experiences.
Um, like low confidence, negative emotions, um, poor communication, um, but also society, right? Um, and especially a mismatch between the personal or interpersonal skills and context. So even if you might feel. Um, you know, even if you might feel confident or good with yourself, if you’re constantly being excluded, or if you’re constantly facing some external stressors, certainly, that’s a recipe for loneliness.
Um, when they were asked what would prevent it, Um, you know, a lot of them pointed to self and interpersonal skill development, um, which is not surprising. Um, in the recent survey on loneliness, we did, um, you know, sadly, we don’t have team data, but we have data from young adults and, you know, It is interesting that yes, many do point out to solutions like loving myself.
Um, that’s actually very, it’s in the top, top three, loving myself, learning how to be more positive or, um, uh, not assume the negative in people. Um, learning to be more forgiving of others, right? All these, so not just like your traditional mental health type skills, but also I would, I would say. You know, deeper, very profound, um, virtue type skills.
Um, and I do want to point out, though, that we did do a bigger national study with teens a few years ago. Um, and even though we didn’t really zoom in on loneliness, because it was a broader study on mental health. Um, but we, we did ask teens what contributes negatively to their negative mental health. And Again, achievement pressure was at the top.
30 percent of teens cited achievement pressure, followed by the sense that things are just falling apart, um, lacking skills or talents and, uh, financial worries. Um, so yeah, so those I would say are, you know, I don’t know if we can label them root causes, but they’re certainly perceived drivers. Um of loneliness and mental health issues Now you mentioned the uk and we should mention that the uk has sort of been a leader in the space of loneliness and social Isolation for a little bit of time now back in 2018.
In fact, they were the first jurisdiction in the world to appoint a minister of loneliness and I remember when I first read that I was quite fascinated because In north america at the time it really wasn’t on the average person’s radar. Yeah um In the U. S. though, it did exist at the time, um, but just as recently as a couple of years ago, if not last year, the U.
S. Surgeon General recognized social isolation and loneliness as a growing health epidemic, likening it to, and I quote, associated with a reduction in lifespan similar to that caused by smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Now, when you first heard that, that, um, Milena, in terms of what you do, um, as your profession, what was your reaction?
Uh, honestly, I thought about some loved ones who smoke a lot. And who probably were or are lonely and how amazing it is that they’re still around. Honestly, I felt, um, I felt like some relief and gratitude. Um, and then I felt deep concern, right. And, um, and worry. That they might not be around much longer.
Um, but yeah, I think it’s fascinating research. Um, so from the researcher in me, I was just so floored, but also grateful to have that data. Um, And hopefully, right, it sparks more and more conversation about this really huge public health issue. So for the average parent, um, who’s living in a time where we’ve never had more access to different communications, tools, platforms, vehicles, we can be connected all the time, every day, forever, if we so choose.
The idea that we are living through this pandemic. public health crisis in this epidemic of loneliness and social isolation, especially among young people, just doesn’t seem to make sense. So, you know, how do you make sense of that? And, and, and I guess with respect to the example of the 15 cigarettes a day, like how would you try to explain to the average person how loneliness and isolation can reduce The lifespan of an individual potentially.
Um, that’s a great question. Um, I think it’s good. I think that’s a really good question for a very savvy communicator, like someone who works in marketing, um, and public health, um, I think the question of, I think it was about technology, right? Or platform and how it is that we’re experiencing so much loneliness at such a time of supposed connection.
I actually think it’s not so surprising, right? Because it, or it’s paradoxical, right? These things are supposed to really connect us. And yet we’re feeling more and more disconnected. And I think it’s because of Really genuine, um, loss of time, motivation and skills. So what I mean by that is, I think, you know, we know from so much research and data that there does appear to be a decline in socializing time, like some, I think, um, an author from the Atlantic, uh, wrote about this and I think called it a ritual, um, the hangout.
Recession or something like that, where we are not really making enough time to really, um, be together, um, especially in person. Um, there is so much to gain from in person interactions, right, the eye contact, the body language, um, just like the, what did, what proximity can do to attunement is huge. Um, so I think that’s a big part of it.
I think motivation, right? I think the more time was spent with technologies, um, The easier it is to kind of fall into that rabbit hole and just, um, just prefer that right over again, making the effort to get out there and make time and skills, you know, and I say this. about skills being lost because we see it repeatedly in our data, right?
People reporting, um, like the data I think I just cited about teens, right? Feeling like they don’t have skills or talents. I’ve done focus groups with teens, um, and they tell me that they truly feel like since the pandemic, they are. Simply not the same. They don’t know how to connect. Um, and everything feels really awkward, um, interpersonally.
That it’s just easier to connect over text, um, than it is. In person. Um, but it’s interesting because many of them also say they want to, right? But going back to that achievement pressure, they then blame all the stress and pressure put on them to be the best to get the best grades to get into the right college.
And with how much college costs these days, there is a really genuine financial worry, right? That if you don’t make the right decision, the right choice, yeah. You are going to be in debt forever. Um, and so I think all those things are really, um, yeah, they’re weighing, they’re weighing on people, um, and our young people in particular.
And a lot of what you’ve just described, having done interviews with different experts who’ve talked about this, those items are often channeled. Through the parent on to the child, whether knowingly or unknowingly, adding even more pressure to an already pressure filled environment. Malena, when we look at this as parents, this whole question of loneliness and isolation and the pandemic and the pre and the post and all of that, like, for parents listening to or watching this interview, how can they proactively address a potential loneliness issue with their own children?
Um, I think there’s several key ways. Um, I’m sure there’s a lot, but I think there’s several that really come to mind. One is to really look for the signs, right? Because we see that loneliness is often, um, inner. Connected with anxiety or symptoms of anxiety and depression. I think there are signs to look for.
Um, like if, you know, if, um, if your kid is more withdrawn than usual, right? If, um, they seem more despondent or, um, or upset or sad about something. Um, and it’s prolonged. Or if they’re just really stressed out, um, a lot of the time, I think, um, pay attention to that and talk about it, right? Like, really get to know your kid, um, prompt conversation, um, especially to really understand their relationships, um, and how they’re feeling about, you know, their friendships, their teachers, their coaches, um, how they’re feeling in general.
Um, and like I meant, you know, I already mentioned that data point right about so few teens feeling like they can go to go to parents for support. Um, and why that is. A lot of it is because they think parents either won’t understand them or will just try to fix their problems and not really empathize.
And this, you know, this is really a hard skill. Like empathy just, I think it’s so under, um, it’s so underestimated just how important empathy is. This idea that It’s not about you. It’s about them, right? It’s about your kid. It’s about what’s going on in their world. So really try to listen, um, avoid judgment, um, and try to understand.
And I think what that really means is don’t. You know, oftentimes we use the phrase like put yourself in their shoes. We can’t, you can’t do that. We can’t ever walk in anyone’s shoes. We don’t know what their experience is, but we can walk alongside them, right? And I think that’s so important to remember to walk alongside.
Um, and show interest like genuine interest and wanting to understand and I think that’s what a lot of our kids are. Um, I think that’s what a lot of them are hoping for or asking for. Um, and then, of course, you know, like we’ve talked about looking at ourselves, right? Um, what, what are we modeling? Like, what are we, um, what messages are we giving, um, to our kiddos?
Um, are we pressuring them too much? Are we signing them up for too many activities? Um, are we focusing more on, on ourselves too, right? So much so that we are forgetting them and like what quality time means. Um. And that can be so tough because I think, you know, most of us parents mean well, right? We all have such good intentions.
Um, I know I feel this sometimes, you know, when I get, um, I work a lot. Um, and I can sometimes feel really guilty about that. Um, and Especially when my kid is at home and I’m still working or on my phone. Um, I really appreciate that. He now calls me out. He’s only five years old, but he will say, mom, you’re on your phone.
We don’t do phones when we’re at the table. And I’m like, you know what? You’re right. Thank you for, thank you for pointing that out. And I put it away. So it’s also, I guess about like our own growth, right? Like being able to take that criticism. And remember what really matters and it really is about social connection.
What in your estimation, more, what more needs to be done more broadly societally to address social isolation and loneliness, particularly among kids and youth? So much. Um, the, I mean, there’s so much to say about this topic. Um, there are three things in particular that we have written about and that we talk about a lot.
Um, the first is building social infrastructure. Um, and what that means, right, that could include anything physical in our environment. So our libraries, our parks, um, how are they set up, right? Are they walkable? Are they accessible? Programs. What’s out there. What’s available. Um, and policies, right? What policies exist to support our social connections.
Um, so I think for schools, this is clearly, you know, really relevant and important, um, to think about how things are set up physically, to think about the services and programs that are available, um, and, and yeah, and, and to think about, you know, Policies and how they shape culture. Um, especially if they’re equitable or not.
Um, so that’s one example. Another is public education. We talk a lot about the need for better, better and more public education, um, campaigns, strategies, right? Like making, um, practical, relevant, culturally attuned strategies for combating loneliness. Um, and. You know, any mental health struggles we might have again, because of that link between loneliness and mental health.
Um, I think just making them so much more known, like accessible and widely spread. Um, and, and they have to be relatable, right? They have to meet people where they’re at. Um, and Be simple enough to digest, but comprehensive and rich enough right to really get at the issues. And ultimately, we need a huge culture shift.
I mean, we really need to get away from. I think we’re still unfortunately, right, prioritizing achievement. Superficial happiness, um, hyper individualism. I mean, these are also things cited by, you know, adult respondents in our surveys. They are cited as reasons for loneliness. Um, so I think, yeah, we need a lot of, um, communities, institutions, individuals, you know, coming together, uh, to reshape culture, um, so that it is more, um, focused on togetherness.
and some common humanity, um, than it is about like individual success and progress. You mentioned your five year old son, and I wonder You know, given what you do, given the data that you’re in front of, given the people that you meet in your profession, is there anything that has struck you in particular about the topic of caring, the common good, or the loneliness piece that we’re talking about now in particular, that has impacted how you parent?
Um, oh, such a good question. Um, Honestly, um, I have to go back to just how toxic the achievement pressure is that that is just, um, I think it’s a really big piece of the problem. Um, and I say that because those focus groups. So I did focus groups with teens. just a month or two ago. And there were teens from different communities, rural, suburban, urban.
Um, and it was just overwhelming how much they talked about the pressure that they feel to be worthy. And they attach worth to material success and value. And to my surprise, They mentioned social media, you know, social media is obviously part of the problem. Uh, the things that they see, you know, the constant messaging around success and people sharing all their success stories, um, don’t help, but it was very interesting that they acknowledged.
They really seem to think to talk a lot more about adults, about the adults. In their lives. Um, whether it be teachers or parents, um, so that really struck with, that struck a chord with me right as a parent, I was like, Ooh, my, am I, am I already part of this problem? Right. Like I just signed my kid up for three activities because it’s winter here in Boston and, you know, We need some things to do and I had to re examine and think, okay, is this too much?
Is this going to stress him out? Does he really need all that? And yeah, you know, like he’s happy with all those activities. He’s well functioning. Um, so I’m keeping them. Um, but it reminded me to make sure to have those conversations, to not overdo it, to talk more about, um, other things. Right? Besides, Hey, how’d you do at school?
Or wow, you’re so good at that. Um, we talk a lot about, um, friends and family and even strangers, you know, doing good for people, how they’re feeling, um, why someone might be alone on the street, you know, things like that. Um, so yeah, it was just, those focus groups really, um, they lit something in me to, to remember that.
What’s most important is making sure like we feel good, um, and that our kids feel good, not because of their material successes or achievements, but because of who we are, right? And who they are. Um, and then the rest will come. Um, those successes will come, but I certainly don’t want that to be the focus.
Of our relationship and what we care about such a lot of critical food for thought that you’ve provided with us today. Milena Batanova of the making Karen caring common project at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Thank you so much for your time and your perspective today. We really appreciate it.
Oh, thank you so much.
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