Balancing Public Service and Parenting: A Politician’s Take on Mental Health

Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence, and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Lianne Castelino.

Navigating a role in public service when you're a parent presents unique challenges today in the face of social media misinformation, disinformation, and uncivil behaviour. Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Lianne Castelino.

Minister Saks is also a mother of two, and she joins us today from Toronto. Thank you so much for making the time.

Thank you so much for having me, Lianne. I'm thrilled to be here.

When you look at the current landscape, what would you say concerns you the most about the current state? When we're talking about mental health and its impacts on kids and parents?

I think that's such a great question. To start the conversation today, I often say I'm both minister and mom. I'm a single mom to two amazing teenage daughters.

And at the same time, I'm also holding space for parents and kids across the country, and not just at home, but everywhere, from rural and remote communities to indigenous communities to life in urban landscapes that are really, really noisy and challenging for so many. And what I'm keenly aware of is that parents are often grappling of, how do I talk to the young people in my life? How do I talk to my kids?

We have blended families today. We have families that are made up of so many different combinations as well.

In addition to all the challenges that young people are facing, whether it's financial stresses which are front and center for so many families today, whether we're looking at climate change is an existential threat, our children and ourselves are bearing witness to war and conflicts throughout the world. And, you know, often conversations with my kids are like, mom, the world feels kind of like a dumpster fire right now. And.

And how do you as a parent answer that?

So I think I start with a question of, for myself, in looking at all of this landscape, of where do we separate out from the noise to find those pockets of calm, to find those moments in our households and in our communities where we can begin to have those conversations of how we're feeling and how we're doing. Parents often ask me, in a global sense, are the kids all right? Are they going to be okay?

The answer is they are all right and they're going to be okay because they're actually more comfortable talking about a lot of these things than we are.

So in my role as Minister for Mental Health and Addictions, a lot of my conversations start with young people of making sure they know what they want to tell us and they know what they want to say.

They are comfortable talking about things that for us are so highly stigmatized still because of upbringing, cultural norms, generational differences.

And when we open the door to them to say, I'm listening and that I'm going to take what I'm hearing from you and action on that, based on what you've given me, I think we can manage the current state of affairs for parents and kids in a whole new conversation of what it means to manage our mental health in a really complex world.

So let's talk a little bit more about that.

When you talk about striving to sort of dim the noise or drown it out a little bit at least, and pockets of calm and quiet in your world, that must be an even more strenuous effort. So what are some of the coping mechanisms that you employ that work for you in this regard?

That's. Thank you for that.

So I think my foundational practice as a yogi and a meditator, and I've been in those spaces for 30 plus years of, of having yoga and meditation in my life, it's the discipline of that that keeps me anchored and really allows me to shut out. It's, it's a muscle memory practice of learning to shut out the noise to be able to focus on the work.

But, you know, how do we teach that to our kids in today's environment where social media life in general is very noisy, their worlds are very noisy today.

And, and you know, when I look at that, I say to myself, what, what tools can we teach young people or even parents to start to understand how to sift out the noise so that we're really listening when you can do that, that's really the entry point of maintaining good mental wellness and self care for yourself. I often say that self care is not selfish.

It's actually an essential part of making us better partners, better parents, better co workers, better colleagues.

And it, that self care allows you to enter into the conversations on really hard things, whether it's, you know, helping someone through a conversation on anxiety, on depression, on substance use, on addictions, you have to be fully present for that person because you need to be able to build trust.

And I think even as a politician, my first entry point with any constituent I meet with is how am I engendering that trust so that they can be vulnerable with me about what's happening in their lives, whether it's they've lost a job and are applying for ei, whether it's an immigration file and a loved one needs to be brought here from abroad, from a conflict zone or from another part of the world because of sickness or a myriad of reasons.

When you take care of yourself and allow yourself to shift out the noise to be present for the person in front of them and really see them, that's the crux of the work. So I see that in the work that I do in my portfolio and certainly it's my benchmark and starting my day each morning.

So part of my question really is about does public office and being in it, did it compare to what you expected it to be?

I would say I'm fully fulfilled in the work that I'm doing. It's beyond my expectations, but I also came into it knowing the landscape.

In my previous life, I worked as a political staffer in politics, not here in Israel for many, many. But I was bit by the bug of the incredible world that politics offers in really actioning on your values and the things that matter to you.

Since I was 19, so the first campaign I ever worked on was for my friend's mom. She was a mother to four and was moving from provincial politics to federal politics.

It showed me that what you can do when there is a village of your family and your community that is supporting you, but that you're putting up your hand to support and advocate for them.

And it's such, you know, I go into the chamber many days and look around and there's 338 of us in the next election there will be 343 of us who have the unique privilege of putting up our hands for our communities. And it comes with tremendous responsibility but also incredible opportunity to bring the voices of Canadians to parliament.

And I love all of my colleagues, no matter where in the chamber they come from and what political stripe they're from, because they come with ideas that matter to them. They come with causes that are important to them and their constituents.

And the magic of politics, when it works well, when it's respectful and open, is that you can work across the aisle, regardless of politics, to get incredible things done for communities and for Canadians.

So that's why I say it exceeds my expectations, because I've managed to work with some incredible people to do really, really important work for Canadians. And it's such a privilege and an honor to do it. And it's exciting. It's exciting.

It's inspiring because these policies and the programs that we put out are really inspired by the communities that are advocating for them. And to see them come to life, and especially in mental health, when it's so deeply personal, is just.

For me, it's been the fulfillment of a lifetime dream, really.

When you talk about the power of politics as being powerful, when it is respectful, obviously we don't always see that. Increasingly, we are not seeing that.

It is even more pronounced, as you would know, for females, female politicians and mothers in particular, to a large extent, you've had many of your colleagues decide not to run again or leave because of relentless online attacks, social media attacks, misinformation, disinformation, generally disrespectful behavior. What is your reaction when you've seen this happen? As a mother and a politician yourself?

Wow, that's. I wish we were talking about this more. And.

And I'm really, really, really glad, Leanne, that you're putting this question out there, because we don't talk about it enough.

Certainly, as a mom, for me, how I model myself in the world is really how I want my daughters to see, how we navigate through spaces that are both compassionate and challenging, but also rewarding because of the contacts that can be made and connections with other people and the things that matter most to them. I'm not gonna hide from the fact or deny it.

Like many women in public office, I've been the regular target of hateful posts on social media, of hateful interactions in person that I've had to say no to and put a stop to. You know, it's hard. It's. It's hard. I don't think I should candy coat this.

It's hard to not let relentless hate and vitriol online in that noisy space of social media get to you. We often say to each other's colleagues, like, don't read the comments.

And there's no question that Women in leadership roles like myself or my colleague Pan D Moth, who was very clear about why she's not running. Again. In many ways, we are the targets of this kind of hateful vitriol. But I always come back to it.

I say to myself, first of all, on social media, it's this false sense of bravado because there are no consequences for saying something hateful online. It just stays there unless someone responds to you.

You know, it just becomes this ever festering, you know, cycle of, of, of back and forth which is really, it's, it's so horrible to see it happening.

But what's coming out of it is that misinformation and disinformation you touched on is that the rhetoric becomes for many who are online, this rabbit hole of what they think is real. And what's real is, is, is. You know, I always say humans need humans.

Like when you cannot replace the value of an in person or even through zoom conversation like we're having now of being your authentic self and having real conversations about the things that are hard, that are joyful, that are challenging, that doesn't happen in, in the world of Twitter. You know, there are those who call it the new, you know, the, the new Global Commons. I don't think it's the Global Commons.

I think it is a silo that only self perpetuates those who want to hear themselves due to the algorithms and who they follow. But we can have meaningful day to day conversations on hard things and we should be. That's what our strength is.

And what we're seeing online is just completely unacceptable. And I also, I lean in on the fact that my staff see it.

You know, my staff have to read emails and comments where I have been called any, any and every reprehensible name you can imagine and depictions and characterizations of me that are wholeheartedly have nothing to do with reality but have to do with someone's, their own feelings and their own anger. In that moment. I don't think that we should shut down political debate.

I just think that we have to really understand what the difference is between political debate on policy versus what is really on these spaces. Character assassination of people who don't even know you.

And so I lean in and say in this moment that we're in this uncivil civil behavior that we're seeing. Get to know me first.

If you want to be mad at me, be mad at me, but at least yell at me in person and let's have a conversation to hide behind these walls. Of social media, I think is the height of cowardice. It's the height of misogyny, frankly, when they go so aggressively after women.

And I really, really believe as politicians we have a duty and a responsibility to model that level of respect and civility that should be at the highest places of power. And those who choose not to engage that way, I honestly. Shame on them.

So I guess the natural follow up question to what you just shared there is that is it possible for a politician who is a female, who is a parent as well, to shield their children and family from this kind of behavior? Because the fine line between, you know, ignoring it, calling it out, being respectful, like those are all in some ways working against each other.

Right. So how is it possible to shield your family if you're a female politician and a mom?

That's such a great question. So I think there's a few layers to this. So, you know, when I decided to put up my hand, it was in the middle of the pandemic.

I was home with two kids in lockdown in Ontario and decided this was my time to raise my hand and just all of my experience lived experience as a single parent, as a mom in a pandemic, my previous political work and work in the mental health sector, I was like, this is my time to raise my hand and do this. But I also sat my kids down and we had a really genuine conversation about it and we talked about it all.

We talked about me not being at home as much, potentially. We talked about being public facing and what their comfort level would be being part of that public Persona.

We talked about what spaces they wanted to inhabit with me or choose to not be in with me. And I think by setting those boundaries, you know, I think as a parent, we should always have boundaries with our kids.

I often say I'm not my kid's best friend, I'm their parent first. And, and that comes with boundaries of, of, of how we engage with each other and, and how we engage with the world.

And so by setting that clear, you know, truth talk of, of what it would be like entering political life, that was the first layer of preparing them. My kids don't have the same last name as I do, so they're able to walk through the world as being themselves.

And I want them to inhabit their own lives completely as themselves. And I think that, you know, they follow me online. I, I, I don't follow them back.

I try to make sure that there are barriers within the social networks on online, that they're, that they're Protected from. And you know, there's times where they come to me and they're like, did this really happen? Did this person say this to you? Is this true?

And we talk about it and we talk about how they feel about it and, and, and what it means to. You know, my girls often say like, mommy, why don't you, why don't you fight back? Why don't you, why don't you push back?

And there are times where I do, I did recently with, with, with someone who shoved a camera in my face and, and simply said, no, you don't have permission to do that. They turned in their own online spaces, but it was to show my children and my community that the backstop's here. You don't get to do this.

You don't have my permission. And, and I think really engendering in our kids boundaries, but also consent, consent can happen online too.

And so, and given in where they are in their growth, you know, teaching them healthy boundaries, teaching them about consent is really about all the spaces they inhabit, whether they're with me or with others or whether it's online or at school.

And you know, to me it's about walking the talk and making sure that we're consistent with the boundaries and the ground rules that we set for ourselves in our lives, whether they're in interpersonal relationships, politics, or in anything that we do. And if we can set that example for our daughters, I think it's the best tools we can give them.

Your daughters are 20 and 16, and I wonder, in addition to preparing them, when you, you know, prior to entering politics and in the first few days there of this new role, what, in what ways has your parenting approach changed or been impacted by the changing world? Your portfolios, which are so dominant and headline grabbing every day of the week, has anything there impacted how you parent?

Oh, there's everything about this job has impacted how I parent, first and foremost. It's about time.

You know, being a minister for the federal government means that I am a minister for all Canadians, whether they live up in Whitehorse or whether they live out in Halifax or in Hollowood or in Vancouver or anywhere else in the country that I travel to. And it means that my time is really divided between them and the country. It's a tremendous privilege to serve. But as you know, it's.

This is not a new discussion of the impact of this work, of what it has on families. So where it's changed for me is I've learned to. You know, we often say it takes a village to raise a child.

In my case, I really, really dug into my village and really prepared that network of communication of pickups and drop offs and, and scheduling and time so that the things that mean most to them in their own growth, whether it's extracurriculars or school time, tutors, having their favorite food in the house, are all there. But what I haven't given up on or really insisted on is the consistency.

So that when I am home, for example, morning drop off to school is a non negotiable. Staff cannot schedule an early morning meeting for me, it's not a non negotiable school pickup at the end of the day is often non negotiable.

A non negotiable, I'll do meetings after that.

But learning how to manage your time to have those key interactions to be present for your kids as much as you can, I think is really such a critical piece in, I don't want to say surviving political life, but really managing it in a way that the time may be less but that the consistency of what they can expect alleviates their anxiety.

When I'm not present, they know they can always call me, they know they can always text or video chat and all of those things, but that when I am home, there are certain things that pick up and drop off happen.

And you know, as any parent, dropping your kids off to school in the morning, key time to check in to start their day, picking them up at school at the end of the day, such an important time to download what they've been through that day. It could be 10 minutes in the car, but those 20 minutes on a day can mean everything in building trust with your kids.

So in terms of managing what shifted and changed, I've learned to prioritize the time with them for the, in the consistency piece, I think kids need that from us. They need that consistency notwithstanding the privilege of serving.

You know, you've just outlined all the different ways that you've had to make changes as a parent, as an individual, in all the different things you do to accommodate your role as a politician. Have you ever questioned the toll that the job can take, is taking and is it worth it?

Yes, I would say that what I've questioned is, I wouldn't say it's the toll. I knew coming into this that it was going to be challenging.

I worked in political spheres before, but I think, you know, being a parent today, there are very few households that I know that aren't two income families where, or in many cases they're single income families.

And single parents, where there is so much of the responsibilities that you have of maintaining your household and giving the best for your kids means that you aren't present for them in the ways that matter most. I think parents struggle with this tremendously. Our kids struggle with it tremendously.

And we see it in the rising rates of anxiety amongst young people. So what I've tried to do in terms of the toll is to really, again, it comes down to that discipline in time.

So, you know, being clear with myself and with my kids. And this goes back to our earlier comments on self care. On the weekends, my staff can have me one either Saturday or Sunday. They can't have both.

To alleviate the toll on my kids of me not being present so that the absence is less if I have to be on tour in the country, that if I'm away more than a certain number of days, giving my kids the option to join me, to see, to see mom work in action.

The toll comes from really just trying to make sure that I can take care of myself, eat, sleep, do all the things of staying connected with friends and family and my kids in the face of the demands of the job. And it's learning to rely on others to help you find that balance.

I think that's one of the key things that perhaps during the pandemic that we lost, we were so isolated in our own spaces that we forgot the ability and the power of asking someone else for help or for asking someone else to be part of your structure to get things done. We, we live in a world where perfection is that you've done it all yourself, you're self made, you're self driven yourself.

But the truth is good work and meaningful work and meaningful connections happen when you're actually doing it with others.

So that's how I've alleviated the toll of this is either whether it's leaning on my colleagues in parliament and we commiserate on the challenges that we're each facing with our own kids, or also just really being honest with my family and friends of this is what I need from you so that we can have more meaningful time together. And when you do that, I have no regrets of anything in this work that I do. It is so fulfilling.

But the toll has been of learning how to create that system of structure and support that really allows me to be my fullest present self for my kids and for the people that I love.

As Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, you see at a very granular level the impact of what we're talking about.

Whether it's youth mental health challenges, which was already an issue prior to the pandemic, becoming even more pronounced now as we keep moving forward, or coping mechanisms of different individuals, young and old alike, when we talk about, you know, potential addictions, fentanyl, all those other pieces that we hear about all the time, what do you see as the biggest challenge facing parents today when it comes to how to manage their kids mental health? Such a great question.

I think it starts like if I had to ask if. When I sit and ask myself this question, and I often do, and it goes back to that first question, are the kids all right?

One of the things that I've learned both as minister and as mom is to start to really get familiar with the worlds that our kids inhabit because they are multi layered and they are not all in reality.

There are virtual words, worlds that they inhabit, there are real worlds that they inhabit in terms of school and friend groups and all the spaces in between. And I think when I meet with a lot of young people, they're really, once they trust you, they will start to share what is happening in their worlds.

And I think as parents we need to be able to get comfortable with the uncomfortableness of the spaces that our kids are sometimes experimenting in or curious about so that we can feel well situated that when they come to us to talk about it, because they will at some point that we're able to hold space for them.

So when we look at the mental health of our kids today and what they're seeing online, you know, learn, pay attention to the spaces they're in, whether it's Snapchat, Instagram, Fortnite, what have you of really getting to know the spaces. And sometimes they may invite you in and sometimes you might have to do that work on your own.

And for our kids, really sitting down and listening when they want to talk to you, not being distracted with oh, I have to answer this email or that phone call of really trying to just take a deep breath and realize that your kids are going to tell you about the things that they may or they may not. Nine times out of ten, they probably won't.

So certainly as the minister of mental health and addictions, when I speak to youth across the country, this is where we lean in on creating spaces where they do feel safe to go. So for example, creating the integrated Youth Service network of hubs across the.

We have 93 hubs across this country for youth to engage in on their primary health care, their mental health, if they have questions about anything and everything from employment to harm reduction, to substance use, to mental health counseling. There are spaces that have been designed by them for them. So whether it's foundry in B.C.

or kickstand in Alberta or Waihu here in Ontario, where young people can go to speak to someone that they might trust a little more than their home spaces, I think as parents, we want to believe that our home environments are safe spaces for our kids, but they may not feel that way. And that's kind of a hard truth of the world our kids are in today.

But we can work with them through integrated youth services, through supportive youth mental health services, so that kids build that resilience, so that they can navigate, no matter what space they're in, and start to trust themselves and us. That's one piece of the puzzle. The other piece of the puzzle is our kids are navigating a space where substance use and addictions are high.

We're dealing with an illicit toxic drug supply and an overdose crisis that our kids are keenly aware of. Whether we're comfortable with that as parents or not, that is the truth of the world that they live in.

So from our perspective, looking at prevention, what are the tools that we can equip our kids with so that they know how to keep themselves safe? Ultimately, it comes down to choices, boundaries and choices. Right?

So how do you equip your kid to go out into the world knowing what's out there, but also knowing how to navigate it through it?

And how do we equip ourselves as parents to be comfortable with the fact that that's what our kids are facing when they're out in the world, but also create safe spaces for them to land if they've been curious, if they've experimented, which unfortunately, in the world we're in right now of the illicit toxic drug supply, those experimentations can be deadly.

So really arming ourselves as parents to know the worlds that they live in and really knowing and being okay with having those discussions with them on what's out there so that they feel safe to come to us when they're being challenged in those spaces, whether it's by peers, whether it's. You know, there's a myriad of ways online bullying, different.

Different pieces come into play for young people today that may gravitate them out from feeling resilient enough to make good choices for themselves.

So this is where we come in with programs and policies and really systems of support in the mental health and substance use space where kids feel safe to go to.

Certainly all of those services, programs, policies, serve a purpose our Employees important. Do you feel, however, that there could be more done from a proactive perspective to avoid some of, you know, these issues in the first place?

And you know, what does that look like? Because it strikes me that a lot of what you've sort of outlined here is largely also rooted in educating parents.

Absolutely.

So currently across Canada we have the integrated youth services, so a growing Hub. We have 93 hubs and more to come where young people can land well for their own self care and mental health services needs.

But when we opened what would be the mandate of this fund, families came up a lot.

It wasn't just about the youth, it was about the families and the communities that they are a part of in making sure that parents and educators and others also have the tools and resources to support young people.

Because a lot of it is about navigation, a lot of it is how do you present this information to a young person in a way that it's relatable to them, that applies to their daily lives. And this is something parents struggle with, this is something educators at times struggle with.

So when we looked at the fund of what we wanted to support on a nationwide scale, families were part of the equation.

So we're doing a once in a generation investment in our young people because we know we need to catch them now, we need to really double down and invest in them because they've asked us to.

And when we do that, we want to make sure that not only are they getting the resiliency and the mental health literacy and the tools that they need and services that they need, but that when they come home, there is this seamless or over time, seamless, ideally place where parents feel comfortable again, getting comfortable with the uncomfortable that parents feel comfortable in learning about and engaging with the spaces that their, their young people are inhabiting so that they can understand it, so that they can talk. Kids are fearless today. They are not afraid to talk about their mental health.

They are not afraid to talk about things that we as adults due to stigma and, and other things we, we wouldn't have talked about. But our kids are wholly comfortable in those spaces.

And when we create a mental health system that meets youth where they're at, they're inviting us to Join them on that journey.

I think this is the work that we're doing right now with provinces and territories in the mental health space is really bringing those two worlds together of letting young people lead the way and that we're listening and walking with them on that journey to wholeness.

We're almost out of time, but Minister Sachs, I did want to ask you.

Certainly, undoubtedly, we live in an intense time, a heavy time, when it concerns mental health, youth mental health, addictions, all of the things that we've talked about. But I'm curious, what gives you hope through the lens that you're seeing all of these issues through?

What gives you hope and why do you remain optimistic?

First and foremost, my kids, I see, you know, I see how the work that I'm doing when I talk about it with my kids, their faces light up, that they feel seen, they feel heard, you know, when it comes to mental health and substance use, over the duration of this government, we've invested, even in substance use alone, we've invested over $1.2 billion in addressing substance use, whether it's from prevention, like our no opioids program that happens in high schools, to the Icelandic model, to the youth hubs, to the youth mental health fund. This is a direct result of conversations that we've had at home when it comes to mental health.

I think there isn't a single household in this country where mental health and substance use sometimes hand in hand, haven't been discussed across kitchen tables. So when I know that I.

When my kids are able to come to me with their anger and their cynicism and their frustrations that so many people feel from time, from the different challenges that we see, and they're like, this makes sense. I want to talk to you. I. I want to talk to you about what happened today, whether it was bullying, whether it was, you know, someone.

Someone offering a substance that they didn't. That they chose not to take, but then they told me about it, I know that we are chipping away and winning. You know, I was.

You know, I think every parent has their time when they're like, I won as mom today or I won't. You know, it's. It's that fulfillment of knowing that, that, that you, they. They felt seen by you.

And, And I also say, you know, having this file, it's probably one of the toughest files in the country to hold right now.

But I love this file because when you meet with peer workers and youth mental health workers and frontline workers and health teams that are meeting this moment with young people and those who are struggling with addiction with such compassion, with such a drive to. It's not only that they are saving lives, but they're bringing people back to themselves.

I think it is the ultimate testament that connection is what we need to combat addiction, that humans need humans to really, to really feel whole.

Minister Sakss, thank you so much for your time and your insight today. We really appreciate it. To learn more about today's podcast guest and topic, as well as other parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.