As a co-parenting mother raising two teens and a tween, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau pauses but does not hesitate when asked to share her parenting philosophy. “Presence and independence,” offers the former first lady of Canada, and recent first-time author.
“I think that as a parent, your deepest responsibility is to face your own inconvenient discomforts, in order to grow as an individual and to respect your child, to not project on your child what you haven’t realized, or what you would want to realize, or what you want them to become,” Grégoire Trudeau shares during an interview with Lianne Castelino of Where Parents Talk.
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Welcome to where parents talk. My name is Lianne Castelino. Our guest today is a former broadcaster, mental health advocate and speaker, Sophie Gregoire. Trudeau is also an author. Her first book is called closer together, knowing ourselves loving each other. Sophie is also a mother of three. And she joins us today from Ottawa. Thank you so much for making the time.
My pleasure. Lianne. Nice to be with you.
You are a mom of two teenagers and a 10 year old. How would you go about describing your general approach to raising teens today?
Hmm, what a big question. Presence presence. I would say presence and independence. And this is easy to say, not so easy to do. Parenting is a role instead of a relief instead of a relationship. And that’s what I keep reminding myself of is that in a relationship, the only way you can show love is by being present. And by letting the other be who they are. So pressed buttons and independence.
There is so much going on in that adolescent phase of development. Unquestionably, where did you turn or did you turn to resources? Did you do research prior to your first teen, being part of the family and you know, then adding a second teen as well?
Well, that happened in in less than it happened at the same time, because we they almost they’re only 18 months apart, right? Yeah, I think I’ve read you know, a couple of books like The dolphin parent by Shimi Kang. And there’s a couple of things how to hold on to your kids by Dr. Gabor Mate. And Dr. Gordon Neufeld, which is which were all before I started writing the book, or they intertwine. But, you know, nothing teaches you how to parent, we all know this. But the one thing that I’ve learned is that the more work you do on yourself to face your own truth and your own traumas, whether that’s a big T trauma, if something bad that happened to you, or chronic little stresses that you never thought that really mattered. But at one point, you discover that the body says no, and you can’t do it anymore. We all have trauma and smaller, big ways. So I think that as a parent, your deepest responsibility is to face your own inconvenient discomforts. In order to grow as an individual and to respect your child, to not project on your child, what you haven’t realized, or what you would want you to realize, or what you want them to become. My children are my children, but they don’t belong to me, they belong to this world, they’re human beings. There is a spiritual component to parenting for me, and this has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with the fact that there is a greater force in this universe that is has been off. And I think that when human beings actually the research is showing that when human beings believe that there is something greater than us, that unites us, this feeling of awe allows you to put a little bit of your ego away in your decisions. And I think when we parents, our ego gets in the way a lot, and you know, so it was mine, I’m not invincible to this. But if you’re conscious of these processes, then you can navigate the fog of life better. And God knows that raising kids means lots of fog and lots of debris in the mind. And you know, and that it’s not always a clear road and a crisp, clear map to to where we’re going. And that’s okay.
It is absolutely definitely a learning process. And what works today may not work tomorrow and may not work with child one, child two or child three. You know, you talk about emotional literacy. It’s really the focus of your book. And I wonder, you know, youth mental health is certainly a global epidemic. And there doesn’t seem to be an end in sight. If you talk to many of the experts. You’re a mental health advocate, you know, how have those two facts the fact that we’re in a youth mental health crisis right now and that you are an advocate in this space? How have they shaped you as a parent and how you parent?
So because I’m a mental health advocate, and because I’m a curious student, and I just want to learn more about the roots of our problems as a society, I realized that a lot of our affliction, whether they are addictions whether they are learning disabilities, and I’m generalizing here, we you know, there are very unique cases that we we can’t talk about today, but we are reacting to a world where we are living in kind of abnormal circumstances, in many ways, the stressors, the the rapidity at which we are needed to perform. The fact that we don’t sleep, as we should sleep, and sleep disturbances and insomnia There’s an epidemic in themselves or an epidemic in themselves. We that our bodies, and our minds are reacting to very unique environmental stressors and reality. So let’s include the tablets and the screens in there for a second. And what I understand from what I’m seeing from my kids, and kids everywhere, because I’ve always been interested in yourself, self esteem, and I’ve been reading, you know, meeting kids from all walks of life in different countries on the planet, what I realized is that human connection is key. So the biggest trauma you can inflict on a human being is lack of human connection, or traumatic human connection, right. But the beautiful irony, irony of all of this is that you can actually heal through human connection. So part of the problem is also part of the solution. Because we’re now you know, being watched by AI or heard by AI or, you know, influenced by AI and social media at a way where our brains are actually they don’t even have time to reset and to process and to, you know, encourage discernment and how we consume, I see young human beings and teenagers that are not having the time to be present, and to be independent. And this brings us back to the first question you asked me as a guide, and as a parent, if I’m not careful with my own sense of independence, if I continuously choose my attachment to life into people over my authenticity, instead of the opposite. And if I don’t regulate myself, and if I don’t consume things that serves me, to continue to have a flexible mind, and a heart that can stretch and love, then what are they feeding off? Because the closest people that you live with in your household are, are getting not only your values and your words, but more than that they’re getting your actions, your energy, and how your nervous system is hijacked by stress, or are you able to relax and know how to come back to home within you how you treat yourself, how you treat yourself when no one’s watching what the conversation you have with yourself as an adult, that tone, that respect, or disrespect that competition or that compassion that patients are that impatience is what feed feed kids feed off from,.
With that knowledge with what you just shared? Do you make it a point to have these conversations with your own children, given you know, the context of your family, the background, etc, the world we live in right now? And all the stressors that you just outlined? Do you make it a point to be intentional about having those conversations about screens, etc, etc.
Absolutely, I would rather have an awkward conversation than to have silence, silence can kill this is literal, people are taking their legs away at a rate that is unprecedented when we have led the biggest technical technological advances because human connection is is you know, is in danger. And the most unhappy human beings are the ones who can trust and others. So here’s the thing, when we look at the population, so we all have a nervous system, right? You have one I have one, everybody who’s not listening has one. And there’s two main branches to our autonomic nervous system, the sympathetic branch, which is our fight flight freeze, if there’s a car that’s going to pass by, you have to stop. It was a saber toothed tiger that was going to come in the cave, when you were in, you know, when we look at our ancestors, and you need to save your children or whatever. And then there’s the parasympathetic branch, which is the rest and digest how to reset how to restore. And during one day, we go from one branch to the other, it’s normal. And you know, there’s positive stressors in our life that are great because they lead us to action and decision making and to moving forward. But when we are chronically stuck in our alert mode, in our sympathetic nervous system, the one or the two branches, we become sick physically and mentally. So what I learned that I found so fascinating, right writing this book, is that right now, if you had a neutral expression on your face, but I am in my alert mode, I’m stressed, I could interpret your new your neutral facial expressions as aggressive. Think about the state of the world right now. Research is showing that almost half of the population is chronically stuck or too often in their alert vote in their nerve or in their sympathetic branch. Therefore, you are Miss reading the facial expressions which you pick up in 100 millisecond and other human beings, you can mistreat others behaviors and Persona because you are insecure you are not in a good place. So think about all the movements that divide that are that Old anger and fear, and that want to polarize, they are based in a lack of connection to oneself. And hatred is based in a deep need for connection that never took place. And I talked about that in the book with experts. It’s fascinating.
It is fascinating. And when you bring up things like anger and fear, certainly social media is a big part of stirring that up and amplifying it. How do you manage social media, with your children in the current world that we live in?
You know what, I think that because our children and I, and you know, that’s an as parents, we really choose to have conversations that can create discomfort instead of not talking about stuff. I think that as we grew with our children, right, 1015 and 16, nothing comes as a big surprise. Oh, my God, are we really talking about this? No, I think we have wired each other in our brains to go into zones of discomfort that aren’t always fun to be in, and they can, they can create sadness or anger and, and we’re not perfect, like, sometimes we scream, and sometimes the kids scream, and we lose patience. And that’s life. We learn and we go back, we catch it, we pause and we repair it CPR. Dr. John Gray in my book talks about that. And I, I really learned from that, whether it’s in a romantic relationship, whether it’s parenting, whether it’s in your workplace, if you catch your emotions rising, and you are like, Okay, I’m angry at my kid right now. And I’m gonna lose patience, like, my hand could just leave and I hurt somebody right now. I’m sure there’s a lot of parents who have felt that way. And moments of deep impatience, and that or anger, or whatever. And if you catch it, and you pause, don’t take those five other emails that are coming because you know, you think you’re going to lose your job, because it’s the breathing in between that would allow you to actually make things more quantumness and more peaceful. So CPR, catch, catch your motion, pause, take a couple of deep breaths, bring your nervous system back into a state of calm, then you can repair it. And Gordon Neufeld who’s a specialist in you know, teenagers in Child child psychology says when you work with teenagers and with kids, look at them first. Or talking or put, put a soft hand on on the on their arm or on their back. Look for connection before their years of life to look for a connection before engaging. I think it’s important.
Without question, Sophie, how would you describe your parenting style?
That’s a tough one. I would say a mix of lioness mama. With with go out and fall on your faces so you can learn who you are.
It’s interesting to hear you say that because you grew up as an only child. So was that your experience?
That’s a great question. I think it was part of my experience. I am a very present mother. Whether it’s physically and I tried to be emotionally I’m interested in what my kids are feeling and sensing I remain curious of their states and other lifes I show interest. And sometimes I think it’s important that I detached from them and to cut the cord a little bit which out shirts, but go out there my love’s go out there, go spread your wings, and you know, Miss that canyon and fall because you you will have enough love within you to get back up. I have actually told them this with these words. If something were to happen to me, yeah, I know that it would be you know, and I hope it doesn’t happen, right? But if something works, you have enough love in you to figure it all out along the way. And it’s gonna hurt because truth hurts, but don’t be afraid of it. Human human human emotions are normal. Fear is normal, but you have enough love and you do not panic, panic can be deadly. And I hope my kids can feel that they have enough solidity and trust in life and in humans. And I hope that we have given that to them, you know, in part and then that they develop develop it on their own. That’s That’s my true hope for them.
You’ve also had the perspective and experience of raising kids with a partner in public office. What would you change if you could about parenting in that context?
The state of the world I don’t think it does it. Tough question because we live our lives like we live our lives, I can’t change the parkour, I can’t change the course, I can change my attitude, my my capacity for resilience through it. My vulnerability, me showing myself vulnerable saying I don’t got this today, I don’t feel that it sucks, but it is what it is. So I heard a Buddhist saying that it goes, it’s said, you decide, do you want to pay now or later, because that’s just life. You decide, well, I choose to face it. I’m imperfect. Some days, I’m much better at facing it than others. And I’m a sensitive heart. And I’m a big hearted woman. So yeah, it hurts. It hurts. But life does. And it makes us stronger. And I’m not saying that we should inflict pain just for the fact of getting stronger. That’s not what I’m saying. But I think that it’s a conscious conscious choice to see life as it is. And because part of our lives are is has a public lens, that’s not how we live our lives in our homes and with our friends, and how we interact with other human beings. I don’t care if, you know, some people think that there is a public aspect to our lives, I don’t believe in a famous celebrity. I’ve never I’ve met enough of these people in my life, to understand and to experience the fact that it’s all a window of illusion, we’re confused. We adore people who we don’t know, we get we get glimpses of their imperfect lives in perfect images. It’s it’s a delusion. It’s a delusion that we’re in. I don’t want to live in that illusion, I want to live in the reality of real people with real hearts and minds who are trying to make this world better in their own small or big ways. So when I’ve come to understood, when hate really stems from the need for connection for connection that never took place, I understand that it’s not this personal, it’s not that personal. People need people to blame. People need to get their anger out. But what really concerns me is how do we get these people to come back into a place of calm inside their own brains, and nervous systems. Because when you look at that those most movements on a larger scale, which trigger the fear, which trigger the insecurities, and which shows other people’s as a threat to ourselves. That’s very dangerous. It’s putting our free press our democracies, our communities and our households and our brains at risk. And I refuse to let my arms down and to not do anything about it. And I will do something about it until my last breath. I am dedicated to this for a very long time.
You talk about making conscious choices. And when the separation was announced in 2023. You know, what would you say the focus was in terms of how you and the Prime Minister were going to approach raising your children in this context.
While we were going to continue to be the loving and truthful and open hearted parents that we were whether it’s through difficult times, or through easier times, I’m proud to say that our binding love and friendship still serves as a base of parenting between all of us, you don’t lose love for somebody because you restructure a relationship. Sometimes love is meant to set free. And it’s not the most convenient choice. And I really wish we didn’t have to share it with the world, obviously. But it’s just not the path that that we are on. And when you keep resisting winds that are part of your life, you’re not being your creative self. And resistance is not a place of love, and of freedom. And enough, you know, independence. So you accept the pain and you accept the change and the brain doesn’t like uncertainty, but you have to no matter if the world is watching or not. I think that at the end of the day when you go to bed is Did I do my best? How much did I love the I love well enough and how much did I serve? That’s how that’s what I think about and I don’t have it all figured out. I really don’t. I’ll just continue to love and try to work with myself as much as possible.
You decided to restructure your relationship. That was the approach that you collectively decided on for someone who maybe has not familiar with that notion. What does that mean restructuring the relationship in the context that you find yourselves in as CO parents?
You know, I think we are brainwashed. success is marriage. Divorce is failure. I symbol of a successful real relationship and I’m Esther Perel, my great friend and ally, I think that we have not been taught to be mature relationally. And individually by accepting our truths. Therefore, when we come into conflict in a relationship, it’s more difficult for us to navigate because we feel threatened by rejection. Nobody wants to feel rejected and left alone. That’s the death in a tribe if you were left out, and that’s still are the same brain of 200,000 years old, who doesn’t want to be left out, because it’s for our own survival. So we are meant to being human. But if we work, and we’ve looked at our childhood, example, and how we were raised, let’s choose waters patiently with presence and work. It takes work to navigate relationships, it doesn’t come that naturally or that easy. That’s what I’ve learned.
It’s a constant learning. Definitely. Statistics indicate that 85% of families in Canada, where there’s a separation, it results in shared parenting, what does co parenting look like for you in your case,
I always say it’s organic. And we trust each other when one is on the road. The other one is the urge to, to hold the fort and vice versa. And you know, we help each other plan activities, and we take care of the kids, we discussed the kids, I think it’s really important to not cut communication. This is what I’ve noticed in couples that have separated or divorced is that all of a sudden, you live separate lives. But you forget that you’re responsible, from an energetic point of view, from a logistical point of view, from a psychological point of view at the same human beings that you used to share a household with. So whether or not you’re responsible for your spouse anymore, or part of your spouse’s world, or inner life, you know, our heart, I think we have to continue to care givers in a different way. But to care, and to be open minded enough and flexible in our hearts without feeling insecure. But whatever is happening in former partner’s life. And this is easier said than done, okay? I’m very cognizant of this. But I think we have to continue to care and show that to show our kids that love can take different forms to a lifetime. And it can grow outside of what we have been learning of what it actually looks like. And I think that’s true love, I think that love is malleable. It is transformer transformable. And it is meant to evolve and change shape. And it’s not convenient all the time. And that’s not how I don’t think that’s what love is, I think it’s it’s awareness, I think love is awareness and presence. And it demands that we adapt and change and be flexible in our minds and in our hearts.
So along those lines, then, are there any tips or strategies that you can share that you’ve learned that you’ve seen that you’ve researched now through the course of writing this book, that you can share with other parents who may be going through separation or trying to who are trying to come up with a plan on how they are going to communicate, and parent their children in separate homes or whatever the situation is, because as you mentioned, none of it is easy.
None of it is easy. But I think it’s a test for us to show how much good or in good mine we have, how much care we truly have. For a person that we put children with onto this first and sometimes Ms are very unequal. And that’s very difficult for one partner or the other because one puts more in and the other doesn’t. I think we have to protect each other. We we I think the most important thing when you restructure relationships is to hold on to what was good. instead of criticizing what was bad, is not too bad work bad mouth, anybody. I think that’s very important to have the maturity to see beyond what makes us insecure. And what makes us angry, I think, to always remember that you cannot heal two brains exactly at the same time. When one talks to other listens without criticizing without judging. Just listen, listen, try to pay attention to the little child and adult who feels insecure. And try to have more compassion. Compassion is key. In life, it is key. And the earlier we develop it the better. And I talk about that and the closer together in the book because we try to want to find solutions for people whether it’s our friends or our teenagers or our children, and our in our lovers or our partners, and it’s not our role. We’re there to grow together. So let’s find ways that are nourishing for us to grow together. And this doesn’t always mean that we’ll grow But the same rhythm, which is actually the most difficult thing, I remember hearing somebody say, oh, yeah, or, you know, the key to a long relationship is the fact that, you know, we never want to divorce at the same time, you know. So I think we just have to leave each other space and time. And to not care so much for the two only definitions that we were brought up with. When it comes to family, which is success is marriage and divorces failure, I think we have to be very careful and mature about the drama that we leave on to our kids, that is not their grunts to bear it is not their kid to wear. And we have as adults to take that away so that they can focus on what’s important for them in their lives. That’s really what the most the deepest responsibility that I see.
You started to write the book and put it together before your family situation. And and I wonder, you know, the book is ultimately about emotional literacy, as we’ve talked about. What did you learn through all the experts, you talk due to the research that you looked at, that has impacted how you now parent?
my capacity, our capacity, every human being has capacity to intervene on our own nervous system. This may sound detached and may sound too scientific, but it is not. And I’ll tell you why. I have gone to my mat, I’m a yoga practitioner, and I do yoga nidra, which is a form of of your sleep. It’s just scanning the body while it’s not moving, but keeping the mind awake. And I have seen firsthand how through heartache, through tears of sadness, through tears of sweat, through anger, through not understanding how to navigate my own ship, that I have the capacity to calm my nervous system. So I can distance myself from my pain, even just for a moment. And to continue to trust that I have the capacity to navigate pretty much anything in life, with love and with patience and with discipline. And this is why I go back to my mat, it could be gardening for you. It could be riding a bike, it could be calling a friend, it could be exercising, it could be cooking, it could be martial arts, it could be meditative walks, whatever you choose. But be careful and discerning and what you choose because there are not 5000 ways to calm your nervous system. And the vagus nerve exercises that I teach that big cranial nerve that goes throughout our whole body, our chest coming from the brainstem into the throat, chest, abdomen and lower abdomen careful and discerning and what you choose because there are not 5000 ways to calm your nervous system. And the vagus nerve exercises that I teach that big cranial nerve that goes through our our whole body, our chest coming from the brainstem into the throat, chest, abdomen and lower abdomen responsible for our breathing possible for so many functions in the body. And guess what we get to intervene on the vagus nerve. And there are simple breathing exercises. They are stretching the neck exercises, there are very simple tools to that you can bring into your life every day. Some of them take five minutes, some of them take 30 seconds time take 30 minutes you choose you choose what you bring attention to. And at the end of the day, we are responsible as human beings for what we choose to bring our attention to. And the earlier we will teach this to kids, the better our society our democracy is out there and the changemakers and they are better systems we will be more at peace within ourselves and therefore will be peacemakers in the world.
Sophie, what would you like parents who read closer together to leave with?
let go the shame? Guilt, especially mums, it doesn’t serve you. You can’t be a perfect parent all times. It’s going to be okay did your best in the moment. You can always do better. It’s okay. Then you can do better at every at every time. And if you fail again, get back up and admit your failures to your kids. Don’t shy away from them. We’re only as sick as our secrets. Michael J. Fox said don’t keep secrets from yourself. Don’t keep secrets from your kids for that matter. They feed off that energy and parenting is not a role. Don’t take that role with your ego. It’s a relationship. So lean in become authentic and vulnerable in that relationship because what will come out of that will be so will give you chills and I have some just just just talking about it. Because when you choose to be vulnerable and to be real, the effects that it has not only on your nervous system, but on your relationships and on your life. It’s it’s a compounding effect. And every time you go to it, it will become greater in time. So it’s investment. Parenting is an investment at every choice you make. And you can control your children. You can guide them, yes, and you can set boundaries absolutely important. But in the end, let them become who they are. Let them study and lean into what they love, not what we want them to lean into and what they love. Set them free. Set them free, set the little birdies free out of the nest, because in the end, they will meet you in those guys. It’s going to make me cry. Oh my god. They’ll meet you in the skies. And sometimes you will be looking for them. But they’ll come back. And that’s what love is. So Wow. I’m feeling it. That’s for sure.
So much food for thought. Thank you so much for your time Sophie Gregoire Trudeau, author of closer together. We so appreciate your time and your perspective today.
I wish you all best, until we meet again thank you.
Thank you
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“My children are my children, but they don’t belong to me, they belong to this world, they’re human beings,” says the former broadcaster and mental health advocate.
Her parenting reflections are part of a larger conversation focused on the theme of emotional literacy that Grégoire Trudeau tackles in her first book, Closer Together: Knowing Ourselves, Loving Each Other. The book was released less than 10 months after her separation from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was confirmed in the summer of 2023.
The ending of their 18-year marriage, which includes three kids, 17, 15 and 10 years old, unfolded, in part, in the headlines, thrusting their co-parenting approach into the spotlight.
“I’m proud to say that our binding love and friendship still serves as a base of parenting between us,” she continues. “You don’t lose love for somebody because you restructure a relationship. Sometimes love is meant to set free, and it’s not the most convenient choice. And I really wish we didn’t have to share it with the world, obviously, but it’s just not the path that we are on.”
With ongoing, broad changes in family structures, including the sharp rise in multigenerational households, increasing numbers of blended and single-child families, historic lows in fertility and birth rates, co-parenting continues to rise in Canada and North America.
The latest Canadian statistics from the 2021 census shows that more than 16 per cent of families in Canada are single-parent units. And many within this number are co-parenting following a separation or divorce.
Additionally, the 20-year-period between 1991 and 2021, saw a more than five per cent increase in the number of single-parent households with fathers as the primary caregiver. This shift points to more balanced parental involvement.
“None of it is easy,” Grégoire Trudeau contends when asked about co-parenting, and especially in the public eye.
“I think we have not been taught to be mature relationally and individually by accepting our truths,” she says. “Therefore, when we come into conflict in a relationship, it’s more difficult for us to navigate because we feel threatened by rejection — nobody wants to feel rejected and left alone.”
Emotional Literacy
Working on herself is something Grégoire Trudeau says she prioritizes, especially as a parent. Her own learning journey has been supported by reading books like, The Dolphin Parent: A Guide to Raising Healthy, Happy, and Self-Motivated Kids by Dr. Shimi K. Kang, and Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld, PhD and Gabor Mate, MD, in addition to examining the related research.
“The one thing I’ve learned is that the more work you do on yourself to face your own truth and your own traumas, whether that’s a big T trauma, if something bad happened to you, or chronic little stresses that you never thought really mattered — at one point you discover that the body says no, and you can’t do it anymore,” she says.
“I realized that a lot of our afflictions, we are reacting to a world where we are living in kind of abnormal circumstances,” she continues.
“The stressors, the rapidity at which we are needed to perform, the fact that we don’t sleep as we should sleep, our bodies and our minds are reacting to very unique environmental stressors and reality.”
Prioritizing communication
As a way of managing this confluence of modern-day challenges, Grégoire Trudeau believes firmly in the importance of communication, especially with her children. “I would rather have an awkward conversation than to have silence,” she affirms. “Silence can kill.”
It has also cemented her belief in having a thoughtful, authentic co-parenting approach.
“I think the most important thing when you restructure relationships is to hold on to what was good, instead of criticizing what was bad,” says the 49-year-old, who grew up an only child.
“I think it’s very important to have the maturity to see beyond what makes us insecure, and what makes us angry — to always remember that you cannot heal two brains exactly at the same time — when one talks, the other listens without criticizing, without judging.”
Parental self-awareness
In addition to having intentional conversations – however difficult and uncomfortable – Grégoire Trudeau is a proponent of deep parental self-awareness and understanding emotions. She shares a strategy she calls, CPR – for catch, pause, repair — to manage heightened, charged feelings in parenting and relationships.
The self-described “lioness mama” covets communication, connection and compassion, as she navigates the waters of co-parenting.
“I think it’s really important to not cut communication. What I’ve noticed in couples that have separated or divorced is that, all of a sudden, you live separate lives but you forget that you’re responsible —from an energy point of view, from a logistical point of view, from a psychological point of view — for the same human beings that you used to share a household with.”
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